Gervinho's role

[US_Gooner]

Jeez, it's tough to see the Strawmen from the Ad Hominem, Cruisio

Or the False Dichotomy...

Yeah you've said all this before, so I kindly asked you if you thought Gervinho has had a better season that Cazorla so far?

Why is it such a difficult question to answer? This would be the third time of asking

If you don't believe yourself that Gervinho has had as good as season as Cazorla then surely theres no unfair scrutiny?

If you do believe Gervinho has had a better season than Cazorla so far and therefore he (Cazorla) should be criticised just as much or more so than Gervinho then fair enough, that's your opinion. Although I think that would be a little harder to argue for IMO

 

[fabo]

The reason i chose Carzola was to emphasis the point i was trying to make, he is obviously one of the best players not only for Arsenal but in the entire league. Now what i was getting at was the fact that if we really wanted to scrutinise his game like some are hell bent on doing with Gerv, then we might just come to the conclusion that Carzola is not that good. And that is the point ofcourse Carzola is an excellent player but if you want to nit pick every little part of his game and tbf i did not go into the detail that some do when discussing Gerv, then the outcome will be pretty bleak for that player. Thank you and good night.

 

[RUS arsenal]

The reason i chose Carzola was to emphasis the point i was trying to make, he is obviously one of the best players not only for Arsenal but in the entire league. Now what i was getting at was the fact that if we really wanted to scrutinise his game like some are hell bent on doing with Gerv, then we might just come to the conclusion that Carzola is not that good. And that is the point ofcourse Carzola is an excellent player but if you want to nit pick every little part of his game and tbf i did not go into the detail that some do when discussing Gerv, then the outcome will be pretty bleak for that player. Thank you and good night.

Exactly, Cazorla has been pretty wasteful so far with his shooting, much more so than Gerv this season, but nobody is talking about that, everyone is only looking at his positives ignoring the negatives. Obviously overall Cazorla has been the better player, nobody is arguing that, but the reality is that we can't have a full team of "Cazorla level players." Gerv has been good enough so far this season (even Cruisio said so) and deserves until the end of the season at least before we judge him imo.

Mark talks about agenda and emotion, talk about 'pot calling the kettle black' I'm actually pretty fair to all players and treat them the same, praise them when they do well and criticize when they deserve it but I don't go overboard with it. I do have favorites, however, Gervinho is not one of them. I spend more time defending him because I don't like the way he is being scapegoated unfairly by those with an "agenda" against him. I think all players deserve a fair chance before being judged, actually that's one of the reasons why I like Wenger as manager, he gives them that chance.

Anyway, let's not get personal here Mark, if we can't agree then agree to disagree, but don't start lowering the level of the discussion just to try and win the debate. I've said my piece and I will wait until we have more evidence before making judgement.

PS. for the record my favorites are (in order): Arteta, Kos, Jenks, Diaby.

 

[Cruisio]

RUS you still don't appear to get what I was saying

titi said that Cazorla has done X Y and Z therefore the level of scrutiny he gets should be the same as Gervinho (fair enough)

So, I clearly asked him to use his OWN critique (as he believes Gervinho gets an unfair amount of scrutiny put on him) to decide who has had the better season. It's not difficult. If he believes that Cazorla has had a better season then there clearly isn't an unfair amount of nit picking in regards to Gervinho, all it is is when you place them side by side, even if you were to hammer every single one of Cazorla's bad points, he is still a better player and having a better season than Gervinho (IMO)

I'm not saying compare the two players, you can do this with Gervinho and any other 1st team member (something i've asked people to do) if he's not coming out on top of performing better than most 1st teamers since he's been here, that would suggest he just hasn't been that good

The point titi is making is solid in theory, but falls apart in reality because a player like Cazorla DOES get scrutinised just as much as any other 1st team player here, they all do, it's a discussion forum, we talk about a players good and bad parts of EVERY SINGLE GAME. The fact is is that he's just a far better player, so his positives will out weigh his negatives most of the time.

And lastly, sorry, but for me over a year is enough time to base a pretty fair opinion on a player. If he ends up having a pretty similar season to last (what with the ACN "destroying" him and all) are we going to have the same conversation next season?

 

[Cruisio]

Fair enough, can I ask in terms of what then? As in, having as good a season as Podolski in terms of what?

What I would say is that yes, Gervinho gets looked at more so than most of our other players, but that is because theres a reason for that. He's been one of our poorest first team players for a while. So for me when he's playing well people love to jump on the "I told you so" train just as much as people love to do the same when he's playing badly. People look out for him for that reason because they want to be first to be proved right IMO. For me it isn't like that. For me, he's just isn't a very good player, one of our worst first teamers and therefore would like to see him play less and less games for us based on what i've seen so far. If he goes on to be far better than he's shown to be so far, people will stop talking about him and it will move onto the next poorest player in the first team squad, pretty much how it works, Gervinho isn't special in this regard

The strange thing is is that if people were talking about the Gervinho who played for Lille, i'd be right there with them. If you watch those games back he was far more positive at taking a man on, his finishing was a lot better (honestly, watch the games, you'd be amazed) and he looked a far better player than he ever has done for us. The talent is there, i've always said that, he's just lacking in a few very important areas unfortunately.

 

[RUS arsenal]

@Cruisio: I think that we don't understand each other here. What titi and I have been saying is that the critique Gerv has been getting is not proportional to his play. Obviously Cazorla has had a better season overall BUT not by as much as the different levels of criticism and praise of each would lead you to believe.

For example, I think Gerv is having as good a season as Podolski if not better. That makes him the best player of our front 3 which is the most we can ask of him.

 

[DiamondGooner]

It's pretty sickening isn't it that an Arsenal player who was asked to switch positions to cover us because the CF we bought was not good/ready enough to score regular goals has actually done a better job than any one thought he would and he get's this sort of criticism from so called supporters of the team.

When did you ever expect to have to defend so vigorously Arsenals top goal scorer against it's own fans, pretty disgraceful stuff.

 

[evoh_1]

@Cruisio: I think that we don't understand each other here. What titi and I have been saying is that the critique Gerv has been getting is not proportional to his play. Obviously Cazorla has had a better season overall BUT not by as much as the different levels of criticism and praise of each would lead you to believe.

For example, I think Gerv is having as good a season as Podolski if not better. That makes him the best player of our front 3 which is the most we can ask of him.

Cazorla's only critique is that his shooting has been wasteful and he doesn't hit the ball as well when its crossed to him it seems, thats it literally everything else is fantastic with the guy. His passing is top notch, great vision, gets the best out of those around him is never off form and leads the players well.

Gervinho scores the shots that his hammer swing technique manages to get on target, he has also held the ball up suprsiingly well but he doesn't bring anyone else into the game due to his head down style which will be a major weakness when playing up front. I also think he has Ok movement but nothing overly specatular, plus he is in an out of form within days which is odd.

I don't like his technique on the ball either and that chance against city was criminal to not even get a shot away.

 

[RUS arsenal]

@Cruisio: I think that we don't understand each other here. What titi and I have been saying is that the critique Gerv has been getting is not proportional to his play. Obviously Cazorla has had a better season overall BUT not by as much as the different levels of criticism and praise of each would lead you to believe.

For example, I think Gerv is having as good a season as Podolski if not better. That makes him the best player of our front 3 which is the most we can ask of him.

Cazorla's only critique is that his shooting has been wasteful and he doesn't hit the ball as well when its crossed to him it seems, thats it literally everything else is fantastic with the guy. His passing is top notch, great vision, gets the best out of those around him is never off form and leads the players well.

Gervinho scores the shots that his hammer swing technique manages to get on target, he has also held the ball up suprsiingly well but he doesn't bring anyone else into the game due to his head down style which will be a major weakness when playing up front. I also think he has Ok movement but nothing overly specatular, plus he is in an out of form within days which is odd.

I don't like his technique on the ball either and that chance against city was criminal to not even get a shot away.

To be honest, I'd say Cazorla has been criminally wasteful with his shooting, especially unmarked just inside the box, while Gerv, so far, has had the same or fewer criminal moments overall. I'd say that's pretty good or at least good enough. One criminal moment doesn't make or break a player, it is the overall number over time and this season Gerv has had an acceptable amount.

I also rate Gerv's movement higher than you do, especially at CF, and I place a much higher value on the fact that he provides a different type of threat than anybody else in our line-up (much more direct). It gives our opponents something else to think about and makes us much less predictable. The way he can make space for himself or others in tight areas is another attribute of his I rate highly.

As for shooting technique, he did score a sidefooter on the edge of the box (scored one last season as well, against Blackburn I believe) so he does have that in his locker, perhaps he can bring it out more often with time, who knows? I see enough good things here over the bad ones to give him until the end of the season at least.

 

[Jury]

It's pretty sickening isn't it that an Arsenal player who was asked to switch positions to cover us because the CF we bought was not good/ready enough to score regular goals has actually done a better job than any one thought he would and he get's this sort of criticism from so called supporters of the team.

When did you ever expect to have to defend so vigorously Arsenals top goal scorer against it's own fans, pretty disgraceful stuff.

Are you forgetting the concept of a football forum again, lad? If it sickens you that much, maybe this debating lark isn't for you?

 

[DJ_Markstar]

There's no debate to be won Markstar, Gerv is our top goal scorer so until that changes you don't even have the ammunition to make this a debate, how's that for logic?

Pretty poor. I never claimed he wasn't our top goalscorer - if I did, you'd have me by the balls. But I didn't, so you don't.

I simply asked you to back up your opinion on him "creating his own goals", which we're still waiting on evidence for.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

Jeez, it's tough to see the Strawmen from the Ad Hominem, Cruisio

Or the False Dichotomy...

Example?

 

[DJ_Markstar]

@DG No, you posted one goal against a pre-season Soton and I can only presume some goals in France which have nothing to do with his Arsenal career.

Anything since he started at Arsenal, in a game which actually mattered?

 

[DiamondGooner]

There's no debate to be won Markstar, Gerv is our top goal scorer so until that changes you don't even have the ammunition to make this a debate, how's that for logic?

Pretty poor. I never claimed he wasn't our top goalscorer - if I did, you'd have me by the balls. But I didn't, so you don't.

I simply asked you to back up your opinion on him "creating his own goals", which we're still waiting on evidence for.

I've already posted two examples of him dribbling and skimming passed 2-3 defenders and scoring a goal.

What exactly do you want me to show other than him doing it and scoring a goal on his own?

But you don't, you just want to argue hence why I didn't bother.

Thanks.

 

[DiamondGooner]

@DG No, you posted one goal against a pre-season Soton and I can only presume some goals in France which have nothing to do with his Arsenal career.

Anything since he started at Arsenal, in a game which actually mattered?

That one goal which I believe was actually two will do fine and they were both at AFC, add to that the goal he scored from outside the box and it doesn't matter where he scored them the fact is he's capable of doing it.

These are goals Giroud is not capable of doing so before you trash our leading goal scorer I think you should remember that fact.

 

[ArsenalDNA]

The reason i chose Carzola was to emphasis the point i was trying to make, he is obviously one of the best players not only for Arsenal but in the entire league. Now what i was getting at was the fact that if we really wanted to scrutinise his game like some are hell bent on doing with Gerv, then we might just come to the conclusion that Carzola is not that good. And that is the point ofcourse Carzola is an excellent player but if you want to nit pick every little part of his game and tbf i did not go into the detail that some do when discussing Gerv, then the outcome will be pretty bleak for that player. Thank you and good night.

Pretty tough to scrutinise Santi. Maybe should have chosen a lesser player, like Wilshere, Koshielny or David Silver.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

@DG No, you posted one goal against a pre-season Soton and I can only presume some goals in France which have nothing to do with his Arsenal career.

Anything since he started at Arsenal, in a game which actually mattered?

That one goal which I believe was actually two will do fine and they were both at AFC, add to that the goal he scored from outside the box and it doesn't matter where he scored them the fact is he's capable of doing it.

Please tell me you don't think pre-season games matter And that game finished 1-1, so you can't mean another goal in that game. The other goal (in Europe, I assume) was a fine effort (which I've stated previously) but it wasn't created by him, he simply got to the ball first and swiped a leg at it.

These are goals Giroud is not capable of doing so before you trash our leading goal scorer I think you should remember that fact.

I'm not trashing anyone, and if Giroud does start scoring goals like this in games that matter, I hope you'll be getting your knife and fork ready for some humble pie.

I'm (yet again) simply asking you to back up what you said, and the best you have is a goal against Soton in a meaningless pre-season game.

Obviously this isn't good enough evidence to solidly back your claim.

I've been pretty critical of Giroud (I'm still undecided on him although I rate assists as highly as goals, and his total is good so far) and I didn't have anyone getting emotional about it then or now.

 

[kopzilla]

He has done well so far but he still has missed sitters and has lacked composure in games such as the one at City.

In spite on the goals he has scored, he looks clumsy on the ball which makes it look unconvincing.

 

[RUS arsenal]

Fair enough, can I ask in terms of what then? As in, having as good a season as Podolski in terms of what?

Overall contribution, they have different styles so it is not as easy to make direct comparisons, all you can do is judge how much each contributes to the team overall. If I were to try to break it down then something like this:

End product: P: good; G: good
Work-rate: P: good; G: good
Link-up play: P: good; G: decent
Dribbling: P: decent; G: great
Movement off the ball: P: good; G: great
Defensive contribution: P: great; G: good
Efficiency: P: great; G: decent
Creativity: P: good; G: good

Overall: same grade

This is based on games this season so far.

 

[Cruisio]

That's fair enough, and can I ask who you believe to be the better player? Hand on heart