PL: Arsenal vs Newcastle | 18/11/06

[Gurgen]

It's not Cesc's fault ffs. Before he receives the ball he already knows where everyone is, and if there is an option available you can bet your arse that he will release it instantly. Cesc doesn't need time to pick his passes, he needs space in front of him and runners.

 

[otfgoon]

The problem now is this patient football we attempt to play. The main contributor to this is Cesc. There's no urgency in his play to release the ball earlier then he does. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing passer of the ball but sometimes he just needs to release it earlier. We let him dictate the tempo of our play and for me it's just not quick enough and it let's teams re-group behind the ball.

On the other hand Rosicky who I think has been one of our best performers this season, is good for us because he's quick in playing the ball and quick in thought and his off the ball movement is good.

We need to really up the tempo of our passing and when that happens and teams start to lose their shape we can try and penetrate more then we are and attempt to be more direct with our passing.

to pass the ball quicker, he needs people to pass to, with the 4-5-1 he has no forward runners to release the ball too, hence slowing down the game so the team can slowly work their way up the pitch instead.

Agreed its not Cesc's fault, but I dont understand why one of Hleb, Rosicky, Robin cant join theirry and make a "forward run" in the 4-5-1.

Because Arsène once saw a game where every member of the team got four touches in a build up to a goal (tap-in), no one dribbled it was just sublime one touch football. ever since that day he's been trying to replicate the prowess of that team and that goal, sadly at the behest of points.

Yep, I agree with you there, but I dont think it should be "at the behest of points". Granted the 4-4-2 is much better, but I dont think thats the issue. I think the 4-5-1 formation is basically covering up for what can only be described as slack and lazy starts to games. I would accept the escuse that its because of the formation only if we didnt have the exact same problems with the 4-4-2, which we did.

 

[sabret00the]

The problem now is this patient football we attempt to play. The main contributor to this is Cesc. There's no urgency in his play to release the ball earlier then he does. Don't get me wrong, he's an amazing passer of the ball but sometimes he just needs to release it earlier. We let him dictate the tempo of our play and for me it's just not quick enough and it let's teams re-group behind the ball.

On the other hand Rosicky who I think has been one of our best performers this season, is good for us because he's quick in playing the ball and quick in thought and his off the ball movement is good.

We need to really up the tempo of our passing and when that happens and teams start to lose their shape we can try and penetrate more then we are and attempt to be more direct with our passing.

to pass the ball quicker, he needs people to pass to, with the 4-5-1 he has no forward runners to release the ball too, hence slowing down the game so the team can slowly work their way up the pitch instead.

Agreed its not Cesc's fault, but I dont understand why one of Hleb, Rosicky, Robin cant join theirry and make a "forward run" in the 4-5-1.

Because Arsène once saw a game where every member of the team got four touches in a build up to a goal (tap-in), no one dribbled it was just sublime one touch football. ever since that day he's been trying to replicate the prowess of that team and that goal, sadly at the behest of points.

Yep, I agree with you there, but I dont think it should be "at the behest of points". Granted the 4-4-2 is much better, but I dont think thats the issue. I think the 4-5-1 formation is basically covering up for what can only be described as slack and lazy starts to games. I would accept the escuse that its because of the formation only if we didnt have the exact same problems with the 4-4-2, which we did.

we used to kill of games and not know what to do with the ball for the remaining hour, now we know how to keep the ball for an hour we just can't kill of a game for the life of us. i'm sorry but even the most naive of us know that keeping possession is useless unless you've got the lead. our 4-5-1 is about defending via possession and it's to such a degree we have no attack now. it's outright cowardly. so yes when scoring goals isn't your teams first priority, you have to say "at the behest of points" (plural on the day, as opposed to 2 points a week).

 

[otfgoon]

So if yesterdays lack of penatration was down to the 4-5-1, then what was the problem against Villa? Because the match itself was almost identicle.

 

[DC Gunner]

Spot on sabre.

I mean Wenger said it himself, 'I want to play 4-5-1 because I can put a lot of technical players in the middle.' That actually made me laugh out loud. It's like a kid who wants to play with all of his toys at the same time.

This is exactly what my Italian mate have told me in another forum: "Wenger is a good coach but his problem is that he has TOO MUCH faith in his players. He is so sure that his midfielders will get goals for him, but they are not the type of players that score. He should change the style because I think hes got the best group of players in England for many years to come but his style isn't suiting the EPL."

 

[sabret00the]

So if yesterdays lack of penatration was down to the 4-5-1, then what was the problem against Villa? Because the match itself was almost identicle.

that was a bad game. that simple. we just weren't awake for the start of the season. it happens. however this (newcastle) has happened more. i know i'd rather emulate an unbeaten season formula than one i just pulled out my arse because it almost won you a trophy once in a competition in which this is nothing like.

 

[otfgoon]

So if yesterdays lack of penatration was down to the 4-5-1, then what was the problem against Villa? Because the match itself was almost identicle.

that was a bad game. that simple. we just weren't awake for the start of the season. it happens. however this (newcastle) has happened more. i know i'd rather emulate an unbeaten season formula than one i just pulled out my arse because it almost won you a trophy once in a competition in which this is nothing like.

IFair enough. In the whole I agree with you, dont think we should be playing the 4-5-1 aside from maybe the bigger games. That said I still believe we can play a lot better with the 4-5-1 than the first 30 mins yesterday.

 

[sparky44]

I think this debate about 4-5-1 is getting out of hand. We are getting into the right positions time and time again its just simply our inability to score and the concentration (or lack of) of our defense that has been letting us down.

Our players need to be more ruthless in front of goal - now its getting ridiculous! We definitely need another clinical finisher in the henry calibre. Although I like the guy, I just do not think adebayor is good enough to rely on him to get us those vital 15+ goals a season - and its as simple as that. Nothing to do with a silly 4-5-1 or 4-4-2 debate.

Oh how I yearn for a louis saha or a didier drogba in our team!

 

[DC Gunner]

I think this debate about 4-5-1 is getting out of hand. We are getting into the right positions time and time again its just simply our inability to score and the concentration (or lack of) of our defense that has been letting us down.

our defense ?

we have not let many goals this season, so I would not blame our defense to be honest especially if we were to win such games [newcastle] 2-1 or 3-1; The problem with the 4-5-1 is not the formation perse, it is the reliance on midfiders to do the scoring, especially inside the box.

I personally think we need someone like Ian wright alongside TH14.

 

[sparky44]

Louis saha would be dynamite in our team, I can just imagine it now!

 

[otfgoon]

I think this debate about 4-5-1 is getting out of hand. We are getting into the right positions time and time again its just simply our inability to score and the concentration (or lack of) of our defense that has been letting us down.

our defense ?

we have not let many goal this season, so I would not blame our defense to be honest especially if we were to win such games [newcastle] 2-1 or 3-1; The problem with the 4-5-1 is not the formation perse, it is the reliance on midfiders to do the scoring, especially inside the box.

I personally think we need someone like Ian wright alongside TH14.

We have defended well in general, but we have been slipping up at least once in every one of those 1-1 games, unfortunately the opposition has capitalised on every occasion.

 

[hoyden]

I think this debate about 4-5-1 is getting out of hand. We are getting into the right positions time and time again its just simply our inability to score and the concentration (or lack of) of our defense that has been letting us down.

our defense ?

we have not let many goal this season, so I would not blame our defense to be honest especially if we were to win such games [newcastle] 2-1 or 3-1; The problem with the 4-5-1 is not the formation perse, it is the reliance on midfiders to do the scoring, especially inside the box.

I personally think we need someone like Ian wright alongside TH14.

I'm not blaming our defense but part of reason we haven't conceded many goals is because not many teams attack us I think.

 

[stuart]

we have the best defence in the premiership this season (atleast we did at the start of the weekend not too sure now) so thats not a problem

 

[sabret00the]

we have the best defence in the premiership this season (atleast we did at the start of the weekend not too sure now) so thats not a problem

no, not at all, conceding one-all draws to soft goals when your game plan is based around possession causing the necessity of your defenders getting forward to do a strikers job and considering your team can't score for **** from open play, the last thing we'd want to highlight is the abso-****ing-lute requisiteness of not conceding goals.

 

[Dougan17]

I honestly believe we have the best defense in the league right now, with pompey right up there and chelsea doing a bang up job as well. the problem is that we concede goals against the run of play because even our defenders get complacent. How many of our games have been lost or drawn based on a single shot against the run of play? they get the ball in our end and we give them too much space. The goal against man city, the goal against newcastle, the goal against CSKA where noone charged down the touched free kick, morrison's goal for boro, villa's goal in the draw with them, the goal scored by everton, and charlton's goal which didn't result in a draw only because of RVP's brilliant volley. Every single one of those goals was the results of the defense lapsing in concentration and them taking what was, for the majority of those goals, their first and usually their only real chance in the game.

The defense, when it is fully awake and ready, is rarely beaten. We've yet to really just be cut apart by a superior offense. Our defense has been up to the challenge of any offense when they're awake. The problem is they come out flat and give up stupid goals against the run of play, they get complacent, and they only wake up after they've given up a goal. There needs to be better leadership and better focus at the back for this team to be successful, regardless of what happens on the offensive end.

 

[eddie_wills]

Oh how I yearn for a louis saha or a didier drogba in our team!

So does Wenger, thus he bought Adebayor. Saha and Drogba were not successes overnight. Perhaps you won't remember this, but when Saha was Adebayor's age he was firstly on loan at Newcastle (and was utterly ****) in Gullit's days and then playing at division one level.

Drogba first season lacked composure and had to get used to the game.

Point being, Adebayor has not had a season yet, he needs time and to be given a chance.

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

This is not a 4-5-1 vs 4-4-2 issue. This is more about our european football vs our EPL football. We have mastered the european football(patient builds ups...) but that styl is clearly affecting our EPL football. Used to be the other way round. I think if the "MODERATORS " can allow me to post a new topic, I will really like to discuss the challenges we face with our new football style(european) in the EPL.

 

[sabret00the]

Mbaki, i went to ok your thread and it weren't there :?

 

[henry79]

Myles Palmer reckons our series of draws are because we're too dependent on a moody player like thierry henry, he also prefers Rooney and Doyle to henry


http://www.anr.uk.com/articles/m-2006-1 ... 17-02.html

 

[qs]

we have the best defence in the premiership this season (atleast we did at the start of the weekend not too sure now) so thats not a problem

We didnt and we dont. United have conceded 6 and we've conceded 7. We both conceded 1 over the weekend.

The difference is theyve 9 goals more than we do. And 2 of them came after they were 1 down at the weekend.