PL: Sunderland vs Arsenal | 04/10/08

[McIntyre]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

Yeah just been talking about changing the player roles etc. As I said earlier I'm still hoping we ended up in the 4231 by default as opposed to actual intent - other wise AW's proving that 2 wrongs (formation & player role changes) don't make a right.

Sadly, it seemed to me that we started out like that and it was intentional.

It may, however, have come down to personnel issues since Nasri didn't start and Eboue didn't come on. Maybe Arsène thought this was a good chance to give them a rest and try out Denilson and Song in that formation.

Whatever his intentions were I don't think it worked. But since we probably should have won it regardless, Arsène might think it worked okay. I don't see why that formations couldn't work but he got the players and their roles wrong, particularly Cesc and RVP.

In my opinion having Cesc and Robin both essentially out of position completely killed our creativity.

Hull and Fulham were aberrations that owed more to a lack of commitment and urgency from the players. It was the mentality of the players, not the system, that was going wrong and we proved so with performances against Blackburn, Bolton and Porto.

There was no need to change the formation/system today and I think it has cost us.

 

[Macho]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

Why sprint if you know no one will spot out your run and/or deliver a good pass?

The incapability of our midfield, and I'm talking wingers too, is what frustrates Fabregas, and frustration is what makes Fabregas do,or not do, the things your talking about.

Right.
So having Hleb back in the squad will get Cesc running again?

 

[air]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

I was left wondering if Arsène felt our defence was vulnerable and decided the best way to defend it was to keep the ball for 90 minutes with three central midfielders and score one goal there somewhere. Had it been a more open game it would have favoured us but we didn't want to risk conceding the first goal.

Some are saying we don't try until the very end. In today's case it was difficult to attack with one centre forward against a nine man defensive unit, so it was poor tactics foremost. One thing did bug me though: would Fabregas have scored that header had it not been for the circumstances?

 

[Mckenna]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

Why sprint if you know no one will spot out your run and/or deliver a good pass?

The incapability of our midfield, and I'm talking wingers too, is what frustrates Fabregas, and frustration is what makes Fabregas do,or not do, the things your talking about.

Right.
So having Hleb back in the squad will get Cesc running again?

Not necessarily - though Barcelona don't seem to be using him, so perhaps...

Hleb used to create space and could be trusted with the ball. Trusted to give useful passes and take a risk or two. He created lots of space for Cesc and good options with his movement. We've lost that and, at the moment, the players we have on the wings aren't creating options. Nasri is doing okay, but he wasn't picked today for some otherworldly reason known only to Arsène. The others aren't creating the options that Cesc needs. But equally, Cesc does look somewhat tired and leggy.

It's a combination of the two - players aren't creating options for Cesc but Cesc is below his stellar best too. It all stems from our lack of transfer activity - Cesc needs a rest, and he needs better midfield options than Eboue and Song...

 

[TomasCR]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

I thought nothing will make me feel better after that **** game but then I came to this thread and saw some of Thegame´s posts and have to tell him thanks as soon as I see him on-line. Pure class that guy is.

Don´t want to talk about Hleb and Flamster again but did you notice how unable to create chances we are? That´s the manin difference compared to last season. We used to play against 10 players behind a ball too and the biggest problem was we were not able to score a goal from clear chances, but the chances were there at least. The brain is not there at the moment. When opponent decides to play all the game in their side, we don´t know how to get a ball into their box, that could be a problem...

 

[hesham]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

I put todays ****ty performance solely down to the formation, why are we playing 451 against Sunderland, wtf. RvP on the left doesnt work he done what he can out there but he is not a winger, Theo is pretty useless in games like this were theres no space to use his speed. 2 strikers was working fine jst 3 days ago, why ****ing change it?!!

 

[hackajack]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

Hleb used to create space and could be trusted with the ball. Trusted to give useful passes and take a risk or two. He created lots of space for Cesc and good options with his movement. We've lost that and, at the moment, the players we have on the wings aren't creating options. Nasri is doing okay, but he wasn't picked today for some otherworldly reason known only to Arsène.

Yeah Hleb was always available for the pass and able to open up tight defences by running at them. It was noticeable how much better Cesc played with Nasri to spark off the other night.

 

[Macho]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

Not necessarily - though Barcelona don't seem to be using him, so perhaps...

Hleb used to create space and could be trusted with the ball. Trusted to give useful passes and take a risk or two. He created lots of space for Cesc and good options with his movement. We've lost that and, at the moment, the players we have on the wings aren't creating options. Nasri is doing okay, but he wasn't picked today for some otherworldly reason known only to Arsène. The others aren't creating the options that Cesc needs. But equally, Cesc does look somewhat tired and leggy.

It's a combination of the two - players aren't creating options for Cesc but Cesc is below his stellar best too. It all stems from our lack of transfer activity - Cesc needs a rest, and he needs better midfield options than Eboue and Song...

Needs a rest from what? The season just started. People keep saying he didn't have a proper pre-season but I don't see how that can effect his performances that much- afterall, he wasn't the only player in the late stages of the Euros was he.

People can come up with all the theories they like but Cesc has been cack this season. Its nobodies fault but his. Its not his job to be mourning over who comes and goes in this club.
He wasn't bought in no big money transfer and he has to accept that his teammates will most likely be bought into the team the same way he was.

Im not saying that is the reason for his poor form but it seems to be the main excuse around here.

 

[Rohit]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

Cesc isn't asking for the ball as much as he used to. Cesc isn't moving well off the ball to find space like he used to. If this is because he can't trust his team-mate to find him with a pass or becuase he can't trust a team-mate to cover for him then he has no business playing for this team, saying the right things in interviews means nothing.

Anyways i don't subscribe to this theory and think it is only a question of form and he will find it.

 

[number_0]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

If i read the words 'van persie', 'volley' and 'wide' in another sentence i am seriously going to puke.

Why?

I dont like how he volleys every chance he gets to row Z, when he could trap the ball and goes for placement instead, he scores a woder goal once every 5 games, but he should learn that you can score without having to smash the ball, or you know, occasionally with our LEFT foot.

 

[Mckenna]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

Not necessarily - though Barcelona don't seem to be using him, so perhaps...

Hleb used to create space and could be trusted with the ball. Trusted to give useful passes and take a risk or two. He created lots of space for Cesc and good options with his movement. We've lost that and, at the moment, the players we have on the wings aren't creating options. Nasri is doing okay, but he wasn't picked today for some otherworldly reason known only to Arsène. The others aren't creating the options that Cesc needs. But equally, Cesc does look somewhat tired and leggy.

It's a combination of the two - players aren't creating options for Cesc but Cesc is below his stellar best too. It all stems from our lack of transfer activity - Cesc needs a rest, and he needs better midfield options than Eboue and Song...

Needs a rest from what? The season just started. People keep saying he didn't have a proper pre-season but I don't see how that can effect his performances that much- afterall, he wasn't the only player in the late stages of the Euros was he.

People can come up with all the theories they like but Cesc has been cack this season. Its nobodies fault but his. Its not his job to be mourning over who comes and goes in this club.
He wasn't bought in no big money transfer and he has to accept that his teammates will most likely be bought into the team the same way he was.

Im not saying that is the reason for his poor form but it seems to be the main excuse around here.

Although he shouldn't be given special treatment re: the Euros, I would argue we never give him a rest aside from Carling Cup games. If you don't have any real rest over the summer then it's all bound to catch up to you at some point.

The other point, the players who left this summer were Cesc's best mates. Him, Flams and Hleb. Are you honestly telling me that your best mates telling you and your club that you're no good and they're better off without you isn't going to have some sort of impact?

And last, he does need a good team around him. I accept he hasn't been great, but him making team-mates look good does also work the other way with them making him look good by getting into good positions and working harder. It's a two way street.

 

[Macho]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

Well what are we supposed to do? he is a proffessional footballer and a good one at that, so unfortunately hes just gonna have to play matches.

Im sure Cesc would prefer his mates to stay but thats just how football is, the clubs that employ you won't always have your freinds there aswell. Besides, there are plenty of players his age here he can just make new ones.

If tossbags like Hleb and Flamini mean that much to him then Im not really sure he should be here.
However, he has said the right things regarding the matter and I choose to believe him for now.
Im sure his form isn't directly linked to his freinds leaving or "lack of quality".
If he is too big to playing with Denilson then I guess we will have to do him like we did Henry.

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

Overeaction as expected. I think had we won lasts weeks game..a draw at Sunderland would have been O.K. Gotta give them credit..they did defend well. A hleb maybe could have made that difference as he was/is very good at those tight situations..but it would not have guaranteed us a win today. Teams will drop points at Sunderland.

Fabregas will come through...he is not at his best..but we still see it and i think its refreshing to see that we can do o.k without him being at his best.

 

[hackajack]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

What? It's not an overeaction when we've pissed away points v Fulham Hull and Sunderland. And we're not 'doing OK' without Cesc playing at his best.

 

[henry79]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

Overeaction as expected. I think had we won lasts weeks game..a draw at Sunderland would have been O.K. Gotta give them credit..they did defend well. A hleb maybe could have made that difference as he was/is very good at those tight situations..but it would not have guaranteed us a win today. Teams will drop points at Sunderland. Fabregas will come through...he is not at his best..but we still see it and i think its refreshing to see that we can do o.k without him being at his best.

teams dropping points at sunderland, what gave you that idea liverpool who are the worst of the top four teams accordding to some people here havent lost at sunderland and I dont think chelsea or manu will do either. why is it ok to you to drop some points at sunderland, its not good enough I can understand if they were good on the day they havent done anything except defend, we should have been playing 442 against them how you can beat teams like that if your being cautious. wenger team selection was all wrong today and thats why we drew the game.

 

[Josh23]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

Of course it's a bloody over-reaction. A dodgy ref's decision away from all three points, and then that 4-5-1 would be called a 4-3-3, and Song would have been called the much-needed defensive balance. Honestly, there's such a fine line between success and failure - how can the pendulum swing the whole way each time?

 

[AnthonyG]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

The ref was extremely ticky-tack today, but there is no way whatsoever I'm putting this one on him, the linesman, or that call. Sometimes the ref-bashers have a point, this isn't one of them.

 

[Lukazan]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

Pathetic really. We're given what is in all honesty an incredibly easy start to the season, a chance to get maximum points and really build confidence and the players have just thrown it away.

God help us when we enter a tough set of fixtures.

 

[DC Gunner]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

The ref was extremely ticky-tack today, but there is no way whatsoever I'm putting this one on him, the linesman, or that call. Sometimes the ref-bashers have a point, this isn't one of them.

Because admitting otherwise would collapse many constructs for many people which in all honesty seem to be more important than seeing the club succeed, how can anything be rectified if people are refusing to admit it is broken.

 

[Mckenna]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

The ref was extremely ticky-tack today, but there is no way whatsoever I'm putting this one on him, the linesman, or that call. Sometimes the ref-bashers have a point, this isn't one of them.

Because admitting otherwise would collapse many constructs for many people which in all honesty seem to be more important than seeing the club succeed, how can anything be rectified if people are refusing to admit it is broken.

Edit: Sorry, I think I may've misinterpreted you as saying the ref was responsible today... When in fact your opinion is the other way around. Sorry again, but I'll leave the post around because, hey, it took me too long to write to delete it now...

If refs are so bad, how does any club succeed? The simple fact is that refs make mistakes. Some days they are so blatant, it can be ridiculous, but today was not one of those days. I didn't notice the ref aside from that one incident. OK, it would've given us the lead, but if we only ever focus on the ref and his poor decisions we a) have to focus on all the ones that go our way that really shouldn't (our great escapes in the past) and b) leave no room to focus on our own performance.

Are you honestly going to tell me that, rather than focus on our performance, you want to blame a split second decision from the referee for our draw? We had ninety minutes against Sunderland, they defended well I agree, but this was Sunderland people. Refs may be "broken," right along with the system they represent, but that's the situation we find ourselves in at the moment. We have to deal with it.

My concern today wasn't the ref. It was our shocking performance, lack of desire and lack of creativity, right up there with Arsène's shocked look afterwards as he mumured something along the lines of, "well, what were they doing defending? I hadn't seen them do that on videos..." Is he really saying he's unable to recognise a defensive strategy ten minutes into a game and alter his gameplan (i.e. send RvP up front) accordingly?