PL: Sunderland vs Arsenal | 04/10/08

[hesham]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

Its bollox, im amazed how he can come out and criticize Sunderland for playing defense with 1 striker when were play the same ****ing formation.

 

[RockyRocastle]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

Im not long back, was out on the sauce in Newcastle last night (the birds are f'in stunners up there, compared to Sunderland where they all look like blokes, makes little sense to me. It is also a dangerous enough place for Londoners as it is at the moment without singing pro Mike Ashley songs, trust me!). Anyway again it was a very poor show from the lads.

Again we sleepwalked through the first half. No ungency, no passion and really no idea. Plenty of possession 35 yards from goal but we never looked like scoring.

Theo has retunred to type, Cesc is short of form when he is being closed down (unlike in Europe where teams will give him all day to spray his passes about) and Song/Denilson offer very little going forward. Why Nasri didnt start baffled me. That boy is class.

I personally really dont rate Denilson. A player who seems to do most things neat and tidily but who excells at nothing. He is not a player who is going to win you games and especially trophies. Average at best and if we have any aspirations of challenging (which we obviously dont) he must be improved upon.

Second half was a slight improvement and we were slightly more menacing, but again I can only recall Gordon being called into making one save from Van Persie.

We scrambled a point in the last minute which was probably just about deserved (and **** off to all the slags who scarpered when Sunderland scored, part time muppets) but it was a very poor all round display.

Utd, Chelsea and Liverpool all have won and we have slipped further behind. With out squad with its glaring deficiencies I cant see us keeping pace with these three. But when you refuse to spend money I really dont know what anyone can expect?

All in all we must do better.

 

[dutchMasta]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

Wenger thought 4-5-1 won us the game at Bolton could win again at Sunderland. It don't work like this, not when your 4-5-1 is so unbalanced it only have one right winger

We played 4-4-2 against Bolton though, just with 1 winger and 3 midfielders, and Bendtner/Ade up front. "The European 4-5-1 was ditched for the usual domestic 4-4-2 with Eboue on the left and Denilson on the right." LINK. TWO strikers are vital to our play:
WBA: 4-4-2 Very average, nice Nasri goal (slow season start)
Fulham: 4-4-2 We just played crap, no excuse. (slow season start)
Newcastle: 4-4-2, RVP 2 goals, Ade won us a peno + 1 assist + 1 assisters assist, plus beautiful link-up
Blackburn: 4-4-2, Ade hattrick, RVP 1 goal
Dynamo: 4-5-1, Gallas goal at the death
Bolton: 4-4-2, 1 winger, Bendtner 1 goal, 1 assist, Ade 1 assist, 1 assisters assist, plus beautiful link-up
Sheffield: 4-4-2 Bendtner 2 goals 1 assist, Vela 3 goals 1 assist
Hull: 4-4-2, deserved better, but sloppy
Porto: 4-4-2. Ade+RVP 2 goals 1 assist each
Sunderland: 4-5-1 Fabregas goal at the death
So far this year, 4-5-1 has brought nothing good, whereas 4-4-2 has brought plenty good, and always involved our strikers working well together and getting something out of it. 4-5-1 leaves our striker too isolated, and with RVP as a winger, just makes it harder for us. Of course, playing 4-4-2 each time doesn't guarantee success (as we can see from some pathetic results) but I think it's definitely our style, and we should stick to it. Even in the past, our 4-5-1 victories were always 1-0 victories and the goal coming from a defender or midfielder, or a wonder Henry goal or something.

Of course, there are more factors than just our formation (the players, tactics, etc.), but I maintain that it plays a major part in how we play, and the results. 4-4-2 makes us look better, creates more chances, and wins us more games, in our style.

 

[Anzac]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

More than the 442 IMO the key is the 2 strikers in attack in the middle - be it 442 or 4411. Supposedly against Sunderland we were 433 but IMO it was played as a 4321, a 433 with 3 strikers is very different in approach. Our midfield was set wrong & that didn't help the forward line.

So far as the single striker goes - IMO Ade is NOT ideal for the role & the likes of Eduardo / Bendtner would be more effective.

 

[dutchMasta]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

We were 4231 (basically 451) against Sunderland according to official reports, but finished off with 442.

When I talk 442 I mean the strikers in the middle as well, and 4411 is basically 442.

Not sure who's ideal for striker in a 451, but I'm not sure Eduardo or Bendtner could handle it. Bendtner moreso than Edu imo. Possibly Vela if we play a good ground game, since he can control and hold the ball up well. Edu's also decent at that I suppose, but imo better off breaking off defenders and slotting them.

 

[Anzac]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

The reality is that in a single striker formation I'd prefer almost anyone we have to Ade in that role up front - simply because Ade doesn't seem to 'do' early goals, which is one of my 'demands' of this team, squad size & style. I have no issues with Ade's effectiveness in the last 3rd of a game, but the preceeding 2/3s is where the damage is done against defensive teams - if we don't get on the score sheet they hang in with us & can snatch a result. We struggle to create clear opportunities (we don't seem to want to shoot otherwise) and Ade does not convert enough early opportunities to achieve my desired outcomes.

Of course this is only my opinion as to how I would try to work things with the current players etc. But regardless of formation - IMO we need 2 strikers in the middle if we are going to play Ade from the start of matches.

 

[Anzac]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

One thing I also noticed once Bendtner went into the middle, was that our build up was a lot quicker & more decisive - as a result we had more pace in our attack & more ball movement at pace. The result was that the defence was being moved as the angles changed & we started to create better opportunities into the area, as opposed to having to go wide for the cross. Similarly the openings in the area allowed the likes of Nasri to make runs into the area.

 

[hackajack]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

We were 4231 (basically 451) against Sunderland according to official reports, but finished off with 442.

We always play 4231 (though usually with a forward in the centre of the three rather than Cesc). When we chase the game I find it difficult to work out what we play since it seems to be 'put the big blokes up the top' and give it some welly.

 

[dutchMasta]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

We were 4231 (basically 451) against Sunderland according to official reports, but finished off with 442.

We always play 4231 (though usually with a forward in the centre of the three rather than Cesc). When we chase the game I find it difficult to work out what we play since it seems to be 'put the big blokes up the top' and give it some welly.

I don't agree, and nor does Wenger (who's said it's 4-4-2). Honestly, there's no point repeating the fact that you think this over and over, you're not going to convince me, just accept it as difference of opinions, okay?

 

[goonerwarsh]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

I gotta agree with you Rocky, if I had a dog that looked like the girls who live in Sunderland i'd shave it's arse and make it walk backward.

It just wan't good enough, another lack lustre performance. I still believe we don't have the correct balance or character in the team and we're not ready to compete for titles. Keane hit it on the head when he said this Arsenal team no longer has tough characters in there like Vieira, Adams and Keown.

On a seperate note I had a brief meeting with Niall Quinn before the game. What a super nice bloke

 

[General]

Re: Sunderland vs ARSENAL: Premier League: Sat 4/10/08 15:00

The squad lacks cohesion and the constant switching of tactics is unbalancing it further. A 2008 Arsenal team should have no problems with an average team playing ten men behind the ball and it was blatantly obvious from the outset how Sunderland were going to set up. Yet once again,Wenger was at his reactive best and it took him till nearly the seventieth minute to make any real changes, by which time Sunderland were long settled in their spoiling tactics, albeit played some effective stuff along the way.

We were 4231 (basically 451) against Sunderland according to official reports, but finished off with 442.

We always play 4231 (though usually with a forward in the centre of the three rather than Cesc). When we chase the game I find it difficult to work out what we play since it seems to be 'put the big blokes up the top' and give it some welly.

I don't agree, and nor does Wenger (who's said it's 4-4-2). Honestly, there's no point repeating the fact that you think this over and over, you're not going to convince me, just accept it as difference of opinions, okay?

I agree Dutchmasta. 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 or whatever permutation you can think of is still fundamentally 4-5-1. We’ve obviously implemented two formations this season – 442 or 451. In my opinion, the shape a team assumes when defending is what defines the formation and against Sunderland we played 4-5-1 (switching to 4-2-2 in the dying minutes). Van Persie may have occasionally joined Ade during attacks, he still had defensive responsibilities on the wings and that’s where he often ended up.

I thought the formation against Bolton was superb. 4-4-2 with Song holding station whiles Cesc/Denilson took turns to man the other wing (although Sagna effectively played as a wing back) We kept the shape in midfield whiles retaining the bite in attack with Bendtner and Ade and it worked extremely well. But no, Wenger had to go back and stick RVP on the wing and it was blindly obvious from the outset that we were incapable of unlocking Sunderland’s ten man army with a lone striker.