PL: Tottenham vs Arsenal | 13/11/04

[Jasper]

Ashburrn, any defence of Cygan can be simply answered by two simple questions:

1 - Is our defence good enough at the moment?

2 - who is the weakest link in this defence?

For any further information, see my posts above.

I can't blame any individual players.
One problem is with our set piece defending.
It depends more on marking, discipline and responsibility than individual talent. Training, cohesiveness, and leadership is the only cure.

I've seen division II teams than can defend set pieces better than us so the reason is not because of a lack of talent.

 

[Jasper]

If some of you are still wondering why Lauren took the penalty check Arsenal.com

So Henry really was injured.

 

[Mark]

I don't think we can blame anyone specific in the defence as none of them are really getting it right at the moment. Lauren was excellent, the rest were not too great. We need Sol back and we need Gilberto back because they are the ones who organise the defence on set pieces and Gilberto also protects them better than Vieira or Fabregas do.

Vieira was better today and scored a lovely goal. Great to see him on the scoresheet after all that Real Madrid sh*t in the summer.

Fabregas did brilliantly for Freddie's goal. The kid is just a genius. Another great performance. Anyone see that first time cross-field pass he played to Reyes in the first half? Absolutely brilliant.

Reyes was really disappointing. I think he will be rested for our next game as Pires did well when he came on. Bergkamp and Henry were also not at their best, but Henry's goal was fantastic.

Something has to be done about that defence though, it was atrocious today. The final few minutes were an absolute nightmare to watch. Took me several minutes after the match to recover too.

 

[JazzG]

Games like this are not good for ones heart condition. I was listening at work and swear too god if they had made it 5-5 I would of collapsed!

WTF is wrong with us at the back. We miss Campbell and really miss Gilberto, hopefully games like this show how important he is. At set pieces something is seriously wrong. Its great winning 5-4 and I really hope it is more of a freak result than anything but I am very concerned about our defending.

 

[Henry's Girl]

Games like this are not good for ones heart condition. I was listening at work and swear too god if they had made it 5-5 I would of collapsed!

WTF is wrong with us at the back. We miss Campbell and really miss Gilberto, hopefully games like this show how important he is. At set pieces something is seriously wrong. Its great winning 5-4 and I really hope it is more of a freak result than anything but I am very concerned about our defending.

I guess we have our team back. They score like crazy, win games but give fans heart attack in the process. The main thing is WE'RE BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK

 

[Anonymous]

Who lost his man for the last goal?

Eh? Who gave the ball away?

Even when Sol was playing our defence hasn't been up to standards - defending is a team effort. There's nothing much the defence can do when the players in front of them give the ball away cheaply.

How soft was the King goal? I don't see people giving stick to Toure for not attacking the ball more. That was a soft, soft goal.

 

[A.Hussain]

If some of you are still wondering why Lauren took the penalty check Arsenal.com

So Henry really was injured.

uhhh, no. check out the article on the website.

 

[patrick42uk]

Ashburrn, any defence of Cygan can be simply answered by two simple questions:

1 - Is our defence good enough at the moment?

2 - who is the weakest link in this defence?

For any further information, see my posts above.

i dont agree with your theory of singling out individuals, be it toure or cygan. afterall, the defence we have now is unchanged from last season's which was the best in the league. cygan played a chunk of games in the premiership last season too. its the team's mentality IMO and changing individuals will not get away from the problem. from 02-03's defensive shambles to the respecatbiity of 03/04 there was little in the way of changes in personnel. 3 of the back four remained. however there was a clear TEAM conciousness and effort to track back and work hard and generally concentrate on the defensive as well as offensive aspect. that was the difference between the two seasons. its seems we are losing that concentration and that mentality, and it is that wenger has to work on. how would nesta account for vieira failing to deal with crosses in his direction against both southampton and tottenham? or henry's careless crossfield ball that would have caught any defence off guard?

 

[beanz]

I though it was brilliant the way we teased the Spuds, let them have the 1st goal, so they're thinking they can win it, give the ball to Titi just before the half time whistle, just to keep them on their toes :twisted: .
2 quick goals and they think they're out of it and we string them along by letting them get tantalisingly within grasp of pulling off another unlikely draw (which to them would be like winning the CL), :shock: but we all know that our manful defense had it all under control, don't we. :roll:
p.s. does anyone know a mail order firm that supplies cardiac arrest revival equipment.

 

[James]

Got back from the game about an hour ago now. Very happy coming out of WHL, although slightly worried as usual about our defence of late

Positives - Freddie and Ralph both had blinders today and Paddy also deserves a mention, seemed to have that drive and determination today which we see when he's at his best

My highlight: the ball landing straight to us when Paddy booted the ball ('ave it) into the upper tier after Freddies goal

 

[Sammer]

What a match it was....


I thought I was going nuts, when they scored again from Set-Pieces. Why can´t we f*cking head a decent ball this drives me nuts. If they continue like that, we are about to continue having a 30-50% rate at conceding goals from set-pieces.

I completely agree with people - like patrick42uk - saying that our poor defending is not due to individual players. For me, it´s a combination of

-SOL missing
-VIERA not being at his best (even though his goal was beautiful today)
-a general lack of defending willingness from midfield and attack.

To be honest, after their 4th goal, I was pretty sure that we would concede another one. It was a strange feeling after the match, being happy about kicking the Sp**s *ss, but at the same time being completely shocked about our defensive abilities.

Wenger has about 4 weeks to straigthen the guys out, when we face Chelsea, who might rip us apart in their current form at the moment.

 

[WelshGooner10]

Still in shock here

maybe some more beer will help

Freddie and Ralph were awesome

god theres just so much more to come!

 

[the dawn raids]

it is definitely going to have to be a team effort to get our defense back up to a better level, not just replacing one individual. and finger pointing wont get us anywhere thats for sure. its just got to get better, simple as that.

did anyone else think Kings goal was a bit of luck? it still should have been headed away, but I think even Ledley was a bit suprised it found the back of the net.

 

[kanuuu]

12 December, Arsenal V Chelsea, this is going to be huge.

 

[Sammer]

12 December, Arsenal V Chelsea, this is going to be huge.

And not very pleasant for us, if the players continue to play with questionable discipline and organization.

 

[tbbosa]

Dissapointing defense...almost collapsed when I thought Sp**s were about to score the 5th in injury time. AW is a stubborn manager, he does not listen to public out cry that we need two decent defensive players, a CB and a CM!!

Importatnt thing we won at the **** lane and we got 3 points....Chelsea will soon suffer a drop in form and we will overtake them if we keep doing our part. Pires should start a head of Reyes. Reyes is off form!!

 

[James]

Santini, Woooo. Santini, Woooo. He knew that Sp**s were ****. That's why he ****in' quit

 

[asajoseph]

Ok guys... I think Ash and Patrick are making good points, but are both missing mine. I'll take responsibility for this, I haven't been clear enough.

Ash, my point is, that whilst perhaps Cygan isn't at fault for every single thing that goes wrong at Arsenal football club, he is neither the pantomime villain that his detractors print him as, nor the flawless saint that some of his defenders seem to think. He made mistakes today, big and bad ones. So did Toure. I'm not going to deny that.

Patrick, I'll try to make myself a little clearer. The simple inescapable fact is, that at the moment, our defence is not good enough. So, we have to look at how to improve. I'm sure there isn't anyone out there who will deny this.

Now, this is where I'm going to get a little bit more controversial. It is without doubt, that of all the players we have at the back, Cygan is currently the weakest in most departments. He has done well on occasion, poorly on others, and has often stepped into the breach and done what is required required. This I will not deny. However, our center back partnerships are interesting. Kolo is still playing in a position that is relatively new to him. This, coupled with his undoubted enthusiasm, means that he is often caught out of position. He'll learn his trade, and he'll get better. This is why a partnership with Sol is fantastic to him, together bringing all the elements required for a top pairing. Sol will martial him, make sure he gets into the right positions, and cover for him when needed. Pascal, whether he makes his own mistakes or not, doesn't do this. Pascal is not only a more limited player than Sol, he doesn't have the presence or intelligence to partner a player like Toure. I don't mind having Cygan in the squad, I think as a partner for Sol he would be good. But I think his partnership with Toure is horrible, Cygan being slightly error prone and Kolo not having the experience to back him up. This is why I advocate buying a new CB, a top of the range model. Perhaps it does mean that Kolo will get fewer games, but if this is the price we must pay to be tighter at the back, I'll not be one to get sentimental. Perhaps it means shifting Kolo to RB, and ousting Lauren, but I'd feel harsh talking about that after today. But as soon as Cygan and Toure play together, we start having problems.

Nor is this helped by the way we play. Arsenal style has been to have a rock solid defensive spine, with the majority of our goals coming from out wide. This is why I rarely criticise Lauren, as really he is an attacking player, and he often does that job well. When he gets caught out, we should be able to rely on a pair of top notch, CB's who gel together to sort things out. This system not only requires a CB pairing who know each other inside out, but a pair of CM's who are willing to get back and cover. Think of the Petit-Vieira days as a perfect example of this. Unfortunately, at the moment, we have none of this, and we are suffering as a result. Vieira and Fabregas, for all their talents, are no longer covering the back. The former is perhaps looking to rediscover old form, the latter is young, inexperienced, and a very attacking player.

This is why I made my 2nd suggestion - sell Edu and pick up Mascherano. Mascherano would give us that defensive spine we are looking for (although looks like he's off to spain). Edu, for all his talents, doesn't offer this. Fabregas, an excellent player, doesn't really fit our style of play either, in the sense that he is attacking and central. Of course, we can adapt, but only if we have a player who is willing to work behind him, cover his mistakes and screen the defence. But Fabregas is a luxury, IMHO...

So, anyway, I think I've said enough...

Lols

Easy guys!

Asaldo

 

[beyondforever]

van persie came on as a sub again and with only 8 mins left in the game. this is pathetic. this guys must be wondering what he must do in order to get a place in the starting lineup. maybe he should change his nationality to spain.

 

[kel varnsen]

van persie will get his chance. maybe in eindhoven next week. guess it depends on whether bergkamp plays at home to wba...