PL: Arsenal vs Tottenham | 22/04/06

[stiiphunn]

1. It's not the Sp**s' goal that would eventually cost us the 4th place, it's the way we struggled this season. We dropped too many points this year, even though we were most of the times having many chances to score. We didn't take them, and we are the only ones to blame for this.

2. That said, I find the Sp**s' attitude unacceptable- Carrick should have put the ball out, and he did not. However he did apologized after the game, just like Keane did, which shows he's quite honest. But Jol's attitude is ashame. He told his players to play on, and actually rushed them to go forward on the right side of the pitch where Eboue should have been. That's one thing. The other thing is that he lied about it and did not even have the courtesy to apologize. A manager should be a model for his players, the way Wenger is with his players. Therefore, he schould act with class and respect.
It's ashame that happens at a time where Beautiful Football is trying to be promoted. So many teams forgot that football is a game, and it should be played the way it was meant to be: in an entertaining way. Chelsea, Liverpool and Juventus are all defensive teams who are the most boring ones, even if they have some of the best players in their ranks..
Sp**s are actually a team whose nice to watch, but the goal they scored yesterday is an example of what's need to be taken out of football.. It really is ashame that you guys scored like that because you were better than us yesterday.
If I were Jol I would feel sick today.. How on earth can he live with this? I may have an answer but I wouldn't want to get vulgar.

I genuinely didn't notice that Eboue was still down when we scored. Nor, did I hear or see Jol yelling to play on. however, I've heard several people saying Jol never saw Eboue either and he was yelling for Carrick to pass to Davids, who was in space.
But how many times in the past has Wenger used the "I didn't see it" line?
If Jol did see it and lied about it, then yes, it's out of order as I would've expected better from our manager. But Wenger is a huge hypocrite for reacting the way he did.

I've seen the replay many times, and I'm quite sure that Jol did see Eboue. It was right in front of the Sp**s' bench- how could he have not seen it? Then he looked at Carrick and asked him to keep playing.

As for Wenger the line he usually uses is : "I haven't seen the replay yet." :wink:

 

[CraigHD]

Part of me would love to see Tottenham in the CL next year, just to watch them do an Everton and get rousted by the first team they come across- then they really would be the pride of north London..

sadly, i think they would qualify for the group stages. tottenham is a decent side now with a few very good players. if they qualify for next year's champions league, i fear jol might be able to bring in a few additional good players and all of sudden, **** are a good team..

Exactly the point that Sp**s fans have been trying to make. If we do finish 4th we wont "do an Everton". In the pre-season Peace Cup we drew to PSV and thrashed Lyon, both regulars in CL, we also beat Porto. Sp**s wont get rousted by the crappy teams in the qualifiers, that's for sure.

 

[stiiphunn]

Part of me would love to see Tottenham in the CL next year, just to watch them do an Everton and get rousted by the first team they come across- then they really would be the pride of north London..

sadly, i think they would qualify for the group stages. tottenham is a decent side now with a few very good players. if they qualify for next year's champions league, i fear jol might be able to bring in a few additional good players and all of sudden, **** are a good team..

Exactly the point that Sp**s fans have been trying to make. If we do finish 4th we wont "do an Everton". In the pre-season Peace Cup we drew to PSV and thrashed Lyon, both regulars in CL, we also beat Porto. Sp**s wont get rousted by the crappy teams in the qualifiers, that's for sure.

Tottenham sure have a nice group of players- but playing in the champions' league demands a lot of energy, and I'm not sure that they can cope with it..
I'm sure they have enough quality to perform well, but I don't know if they have what it takes to do well in the CL and the in EPL at the same time.
Everton is not the only one to have struggled after qualifying in the CL- Betis, in Spain, have had the same problem this year.
Only time will tell, but they have good youngsters, that's for sure. And, more importantly, they play some nice football!

 

[hertyid]

And as for the sportsmanship calls, you did the same against Sheffield Utd in the Fa Cup semi-final a couple of years ago....

"ndeed, it was not until the 35th minute that the game exploded into action, let alone controversy.

With Allison still lying on the ground after being unceremoniously tackled from behind by Campbell, Arsenal finally managed to break with their normal pace and poise.

With first Allison and then Tonge out of the picture, Francis Jeffers was allowed space to scuffle his way to the byline.

His low cross was scuffed against the far post by Wiltord, who chased the loose ball and saw his next effort blocked.

However, the ball rebounded only as far as Ljungberg, who was lurking on the penalty spot and drove his shot high into the net.

United were livid. Warnock went berserk on the touchline like a modern-day version of Basil Fawlty and Poll was besieged, with the recriminations continuing into the tunnel."

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/report?id=96071&#38&cc=5739

You're telling us our own history - Wenger had that game replayed we made ammends . I suppose you either did not research the matter or did conveniently left it out. Its finished get over it.

No, we didn't replay that game, I was at that game in 2003.

The game you are referring to was (re)played in 1999.

Exactly. God, with some people on here, it's like I'm telling them their own club's history. Luckily there're a few sensible and knowledgable posters like RocktheCasbah to try and counter-balance some of the diatribe spouted.

You didn't replay the game, you scord when their player (allison) was down injured (from a Campbell tackle), Tonge was taken out by the ref during the build-up, both stayed down injured, you took the ball up the other end and Ljunberg scored.

If that's in any way different to what happened yesterday then fine. But to me, it looks exactly the same. You have to take your chances in this league. This game was too important. Just like your FA Cup semi-final.

 

[KingReyes]

Part of me would love to see Tottenham in the CL next year, just to watch them do an Everton and get rousted by the first team they come across- then they really would be the pride of north London..

sadly, i think they would qualify for the group stages. tottenham is a decent side now with a few very good players. if they qualify for next year's champions league, i fear jol might be able to bring in a few additional good players and all of sudden, **** are a good team..

Exactly the point that Sp**s fans have been trying to make. If we do finish 4th we wont "do an Everton". In the pre-season Peace Cup we drew to PSV and thrashed Lyon, both regulars in CL, we also beat Porto. Sp**s wont get rousted by the crappy teams in the qualifiers, that's for sure.

See this is why you should think before you post. You brag that drew with PSV and Lyon in the mighty and prestigous 'Peace Cup' but you then forget you lost to Grimbsy and Leicester.

Some tin pot pre season cup victory doesn't make you on par with them, just like losing to Grimsby and Leicester doesn't mean they are better than you.

And don't forget unless you are seeded, which you won't be because you haven't seen Europe since a Gooner won you the league cup in 99 then you might come up against a seeded team.

 

[celestis]

And as for the sportsmanship calls, you did the same against Sheffield Utd in the Fa Cup semi-final a couple of years ago....

"ndeed, it was not until the 35th minute that the game exploded into action, let alone controversy.

With Allison still lying on the ground after being unceremoniously tackled from behind by Campbell, Arsenal finally managed to break with their normal pace and poise.

With first Allison and then Tonge out of the picture, Francis Jeffers was allowed space to scuffle his way to the byline.



His low cross was scuffed against the far post by Wiltord, who chased the loose ball and saw his next effort blocked.

However, the ball rebounded only as far as Ljungberg, who was lurking on the penalty spot and drove his shot high into the net.

United were livid. Warnock went berserk on the touchline like a modern-day version of Basil Fawlty and Poll was besieged, with the recriminations continuing into the tunnel."

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/report?id=96071&#38&cc=5739

You're telling us our own history - Wenger had that game replayed we made ammends . I suppose you either did not research the matter or did conveniently left it out. Its finished get over it.

No, we didn't replay that game, I was at that game in 2003.

The game you are referring to was (re)played in 1999.

Exactly. God, with some people on here, it's like I'm telling them their own club's history. Luckily there're a few sensible and knowledgable posters like RocktheCasbah to try and counter-balance some of the diatribe spouted.

You didn't replay the game, you scord when their player (allison) was down injured (from a Campbell tackle), Tonge was taken out by the ref during the build-up, both stayed down injured, you took the ball up the other end and Ljunberg scored.

If that's in any way different to what happened yesterday then fine. But to me, it looks exactly the same. You have to take your chances in this league. This game was too important. Just like your FA Cup semi-final.

Well then I guess you do have to tell me my club history ops:
Worse I have a very vague recollection of something like that happening but then just shrugging it of.

 

[RockyRocastle]

Part of me would love to see Tottenham in the CL next year, just to watch them do an Everton and get rousted by the first team they come across- then they really would be the pride of north London..

sadly, i think they would qualify for the group stages. tottenham is a decent side now with a few very good players. if they qualify for next year's champions league, i fear jol might be able to bring in a few additional good players and all of sudden, **** are a good team..

Exactly the point that Sp**s fans have been trying to make. If we do finish 4th we wont "do an Everton". In the pre-season Peace Cup we drew to PSV and thrashed Lyon, both regulars in CL, we also beat Porto. Sp**s wont get rousted by the crappy teams in the qualifiers, that's for sure.

Brilliant mate, that post is just simply brilliant.

It sums you lot up 100%

The ****ing peace cup!

 

[Meek]

i just want to say one thing. Sp**s will play 40 games this season by the time the seasons closes. Arsenal, if we reach the final of the champions league, would have played 59 games. thats 19 games more ffs, yet the spuds are only 4 points in front of us. liverpool have played around 55+ as well. Sp**s should be in a way better postion tbh, they have a fresh squad every week. they have basically only played 1 competition this year. good luck to em next year when they probably are going to be playing in 4 competitions (1 of which will be in europe, be it the UCL or the UC) then we will see how they cope with the pressure of playing 50+ games in a season.

 

[Disconosebleed]

Nice to see there are at least a handful of Arsenal fans on here capable of objective thought.

Another Yiddo here, not looking to start trouble - just to give my opinions on the game.

The goal was utterly legitimate. That's as much as I'm going to say about that, as it's a circular argument that I can't be bothered to get into. What I will say, indirectly related to that incident - the utmost respect to Cesc Fabregas a few minutes later, when Dawson went down with a head injury and Keane put the ball out of play. It would have been very easy for Fabregas to listen to the cat calls from Arsenal fans and possibly instructions from others around him to refuse to give the ball back to Sp**s - it was a pleasant surprise that he showed such maturity in giving the ball back. Similar credit to Henry for giving a balanced view of that incident, and the similarly contentious issue of the possible foul on Stalteri in the lead up to the equaliser.

And, of course, credit for the goal - which was absolutely superb. Not your typical goal of the month effort, there wasn't much that was spectacular about it, but in terms of technique and speed of though, it was a stunning goal. If Henry does indeed leave at the end of the season, even as a Yiddo I'll be sad to see him go - a hero of the modern game, not only for his magnificent ability, but his decency both on and off the pitch too. A legend in matches and a gentleman before and after. I'm not going to bullshit and say that, on the face of it, I won't be glad to see the back of him - but he will certainly be missed.

Anyway, back to the match. I think, even from the point of those who are 100% convinced that the Sp**s goal was an outrage must at least accept that we thoroughly deserved at LEAST a point - we dominated the vast majority of the game, with far more incisive football and teamwork (particularly with Keane and Lennon down the right) that is reminiscent of the great Arsenal side of a couple of years back.

To get yourselves caught up about the goal is to miss the bigger picture - that we came to your ground and outperformed you on the day - vastly outperformed you, in fact. The likes of Wenger and Lehmann predictably disgraced themselves in their reactions to the goal - both of whom were unquestionably out of order, and whether or not you think the goal should have stood, Sp**s showed a degree of class both in Davids refusing to react to the provocations of Lehmann and Pires, and Jol simply stating his point that he didn't see it (truthfully or not - not something Wenger has ANY place to comment on given his history) in the face of furious Wenger tirades.

That said, I would give Arsenal a hell of a lot of credit following yesterday's match. That is probably the best I've EVER seen Tottenham play, given the circumstances, the opposition and the size of the occasion - and we still couldn't claim victory, because Arsenal rallied so well. Sure, you rode your luck in the first half, but to come back from a goal down against a side who can defend for their lives like we can shows a great deal of bottle, something you have consistently lacked over the course of this season - so the utmost respect for pulling it out when you really needed it. The class of both sets of players was on show after the game also - a game with such controversial incidents could easily have boiled over, but both sides reigned themselves in and showed great class in their actions after the game - again Henry should be noted, who I believe made a point of going and shaking the hand of every Sp**s player individually.

Unfortunately, I would again point the finger at Wenger here - for someone who only a few months ago had a pop at Mourinho for not shaking hands, he's proved himself yet again to be a hypocrite for walking down the tunnel without shaking hands with Jol. Him aside, though, Arsenal were fautless in their post-game reactions - I think it spoke a lot for the mutual respect and conduct of the players than Henry and Carrick agreed to be interviewed together, despite not only playing for opposition sides but also disagreeing on the major issue of the game.

Anyway, that's about as much as I have to say. Except to take exception to something some cretin on here spouted - that Arsenal have a future, and "what the **** do Sp**s have?". I would say that we have one of the best groups of youngsters that the Premiership has ever seen. We have the most exciting prospect in the country in Aaron Lennon, we have a preposterously young set of players (youngest average first-team eleven in the Premiership this season - and comfortably), the likelihood of Champions' League football next season (with all the financial gains and transfer prospects that includes). We also have a great up-and-coming manager, a fine backroom staff and a top-class captain who is Sp**s through-and-through.

On this season's evidence, I wouldn't put up a fight to anyone who said Arsenal are the better side. I think that, for all our great performances and the fact we deserve to be where we are in the Premiership, to an extent we have got lucky - other challenging sides like Arsenal and Bolton have had anywhere from 30-50% more games than us, so we have managed to maintain our fitness levels this season. Having said that, next season we will undoubtably come back stronger - the team looks more of a cohesive unit now than at any stage this season, and there is every reason to believe that the current side, with a couple of improvements, will be able to cope with the extra workload of European football and still maintain our position as one of the top four sides in the country. And, if I'm absolutely honest, I think that an Arsenal first eleven without Henry is not as good as Tottenham's current first eleven - while we don't have any world-class players, we have a great many very, very good players - most of whom will only improve from their young age.

So here's to next season - I think it's fair to say that Sp**s and Arsenal are VERY evenly matched now, both with many great young players (and I should say now that Eboue, Flamini and in particular Van Persie and Fabregas are capable of incredible things. Fabregas will probably be the best midfielder in the world in a few years, he's absolutely astonishing) - the future is bright for both sides, and I look forward to battling it out with the Gooners in the coming years.

And, finally, good luck to your lads on Tuesday night. As much as I would cry myself into dehydration if you won the European Cup, it's fair to say that Arsenal/Barcelona is a final for the purists, and would be a wonderful advert for football worldwide. Provided the Catalans batter you senseless, obviously :wink:

Cheers for listening, hope the posts of myself, CraigHD and any others show you that not all Yids are ****s, just as I've found on here that every now and then there is a non-biased Gooner! Oh, and sorry for the length of the post.

 

[qs]

Part of me would love to see Tottenham in the CL next year, just to watch them do an Everton and get rousted by the first team they come across- then they really would be the pride of north London..

sadly, i think they would qualify for the group stages. tottenham is a decent side now with a few very good players. if they qualify for next year's champions league, i fear jol might be able to bring in a few additional good players and all of sudden, **** are a good team..

Exactly the point that Sp**s fans have been trying to make. If we do finish 4th we wont "do an Everton". In the pre-season Peace Cup we drew to PSV and thrashed Lyon, both regulars in CL, we also beat Porto. Sp**s wont get rousted by the crappy teams in the qualifiers, that's for sure.

Everton went out to Villareal you *****. Villareal would destry Sp**s, no doubt about it.

 

[Disconosebleed]

The comparison with Everton last season is utterly ridiculous, for many reasons:

-Everton were never a Champions' League quality side - they were a very limited side who performed vastly above their ability, and relied on an admittedly excellent run of 1-0 wins, alongside terrible form from everyone outside the top three. I believe they had 60 points by the end of the season, which this season would have them at best fifth, but more likely around seventh. A few weeks ago, I wouldn't have said that Sp**s were quite a Champions' League quality side either, but recent performances and the likelihood of improvement with qualification for the competition would certainly give us a side worthy of competing.

-They didn't have the scope for improvement that we do, because they are a smaller side. They tried and failed to bring in big players, but only got a few joke players like Neville, Davies and Kroldrup. Tottenham's sights are aimed far higher, and while we might not end up getting a Van Nistelrooy or a Ribery, we may very well get a Torres, a Bellamy or a Downing - players of proven class who can improve the side in our weaker areas.

-Everton were vastly unlucky on two counts - firstly, they drew a very, very good team in Villarreal - at the time it was considered a tough draw but a winnable tie, now they may even find themselves having been knocked out by a team that reached the final. Secondly, they had an AWFUL run of injuries at the start of the season, and barely had a side out for either leg of the tie. Hopefully that won't happen for Tottenham, but even if it does we would expect to be able to field a good side, because of the size of our squad.

So yeah...the chances of Tottenham 'pulling an Everton' are highly, highly unlikely.

 

[jester]

chances are you'll also get a toughish draw because you'll be unseeded.
and i wish Sp**s supporters would stop with all the torres talk. there has been nothing concrete to suggest he'll play for you next season and will probably go to one of the top 10 teams (that includes us )

 

[Disconosebleed]

It's all tabloid talk and faux-ITK bullshit, but there's no smoke without fire, and the few 'official' reports have been at the very least encouraging.

It's true we could get a tough draw, but there are plenty of seeded sides who are very weak.

 

[jester]

It's all tabloid talk and faux-ITK bullshit, but there's no smoke without fire, and the few 'official' reports have been at the very least encouraging.

It's true we could get a tough draw, but there are plenty of seeded sides who are very weak.

there's also been reports of him joining us and about 5 other teams. you cant believe everything you read
Sp**s fans cant genuinely believe torres will join them can they?

 

[Disconosebleed]

Well you've just said yourself that Arsenal one of the 'big sides' he could join. Do you think Arsenal have more chance of getting him than Sp**s do? Given that it's now not just possible but LIKELY that Sp**s will be playing in the Champions' League next year, while Arsenal will be in the UEFA Cup. Far from definite, but Torres' decision will be made after these matters have been solved.

So I will answer your question - yes, Ithink it's a distinct possibility, provided we get Champions' League football. But here's a return question for you - Hypothetically speaking, do you honestly believe he would choose a UEFA Cup-bound Arsenal over a Tottenham side that will play Champions' League football? This is before we even consider whether or not Henry will be at Ashburton next year.

 

[RockyRocastle]

The goal was utterly legitimate. That's as much as I'm going to say about that, as it's a circular argument that I can't be bothered to get into. What I will say, indirectly related to that incident - the utmost respect to Cesc Fabregas a few minutes later, when Dawson went down with a head injury and Keane put the ball out of play. It would have been very easy for Fabregas to listen to the cat calls from Arsenal fans and possibly instructions from others around him to refuse to give the ball back to Sp**s - it was a pleasant surprise that he showed such maturity in giving the ball back. Similar credit to Henry for giving a balanced view of that incident, and the similarly contentious issue of the possible foul on Stalteri in the lead up to the equaliser.

You obviously imply that Cesc did the right thing in kicking the ball out for Dawson, so what is different to the Carrick situation?

And all this bollocks that you lot spout about your manager having the most integrity of any other manager - he has been well and truely shown up for a lying **** now.

 

[Captain]

He'd choose Arsenal everytime; same way that players would sign for Barcelona if they were in the UEFA cup ahead of us in the champs league.

 

[jester]

Well you've just said yourself that Arsenal one of the 'big sides' he could join. Do you think Arsenal have more chance of getting him than Sp**s do? Given that it's now not just possible but LIKELY that Sp**s will be playing in the Champions' League next year, while Arsenal will be in the UEFA Cup. Far from definite, but Torres' decision will be made after these matters have been solved.

So I will answer your question - yes, Ithink it's a distinct possibility, provided we get Champions' League football. But here's a return question for you - Hypothetically speaking, do you honestly believe he would choose a UEFA Cup-bound Arsenal over a Tottenham side that will play Champions' League football? This is before we even consider whether or not Henry will be at Ashburton next year.

yes since he's been with a.madrid for a while with no c.l football, with the chance of joining a c.l team every year. plus the fact we have one of his best friends in reyes, and the emergence of cesc.
he is only young, so will have ample time to get c.l football, and this season apart we are more likely to get in it again next year, with this year being a huge blip by our standards. afterall, you'll only be in the c.l next year and will have a lot harder fight to keep it the years after
if henry does stay its another pull, as well as the new stadium.
so yes, i think he'd join us over you any day of the week (and reports, as you like them, said he already picked us over you, much to the annoyance of tottenham officials) but like i said, cant believe everything you read

 

[the dawn raids]

im not reading through all of this nonsense, and some of these points have probably been made, so ill keep it brief.

you can say what you want about unfair advantages for goals, etc. but the fact that we played one of our worst games of the year and still managed a draw tells you all you need to know about where these two clubs are.

van persie looked better yesterday (but not that much better to be honest) but adebayor was poor again. frankly you can flip a coin to see which one plays the rest of the season because neither has made any decent claim to partner henry.

and the midfield was absolutely ****ing useless. it was a glaring example that this team just cant create anything without fabregas and hleb.

 

[Disconosebleed]

You obviously imply that Cesc did the right thing in kicking the ball out for Dawson, so what is different to the Carrick situation?

Because the two incidents were completely different. I said before I can't be arsed to go into this - but I'll quickly explain myself, rather than be seen as backing away from the issue. First difference - Eboue's injury was not legitimate. The referee accepted this, Carrick accepted this - the only people who didn't accept this was thoe dozing Arsenal defence that lost concentration and then used it as an easy target to blame. Eboue went down, went to get back up - looked at the way play was heading and, in scenes all too often occurring nowadays, STAYED DOWN IN THE HOPE THE BALL WOULD BE KICKED OUT OF PLAY. Dawson's injury was legitimate, and not only that it was also a head injury - if Keane hadn't put the ball out of play, the referee would have had to stop the match anyway.

Secondly, there is a fundamental difference of situation - in both cases, Sp**s were in control of the ball. There's very little actual similarity between the two situations, to be fair.

I'd sum up my opinion on it with this - find me a single objective viewer who supports the Arsenal point of view. You're obviously going to see the incident in a negative light, I'm obviously going to think we were perfectly in order to keep the ball in play. So find me a non-biased article that supports the Arsenal point of view. The only supposedly objective point of view I've seen today was from the noxious Oliver Holt on Soccer Sunday - who put forward his viewpoint that Sp**s were out of order, but funnily enough failed to mention that he is an Arsenal fan.

Literally every article I've read, every opinion I've heard, has been in favour of Sp**s - and that is because the goal was perfectly legitimate. Simple as that.