PL: Arsenal vs West Bromwich | 16/08/08

[gstew]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

Very impressed by the rapport ive recieved regarding Song at the Olympics. Best player against that Brazil was he gstew?! Woah hes really come on leaps and seemed to be in CM I take it?

After the Cameroon red card, he actually played both CM and CB. In the overtime he was part of the attack build-up (didn't get as far as the Brazil goal box) and was also the last man back against the Brazil attacks. He was last man for both goals, but made superb defensive plays on both. The first one, he made up 5 yards and cut down the angle on Sobis who was put clear through. If not for terrible play by the goalkeeper Song would have closed him down. It is strange to me as Song never seems very fast, but he is never beaten for speed. And in this case he was dramatically faster than the Brazilian striker. The second goal was also not his fault, as he did all he could do. He tracked Marcelo who had position on him and was at full speed for a give/go while our Alex had to turn and sprint with him. And Marcelo struck the return pass off his outer shin (without breaking stride) with Alex right on him.

To me, Song truly looked a level above his teammates. If Wenger sees him at DM, I would now prefer that we buy a wide man to another DM. With the engine that Song is showing, I would say that the only area that Flamini is now superior to Song is shooting (experience also, of course). And Song is superior in the air, technically, defensively and is both stronger and faster. It remains to be seen whether he would be a better performer, but IMO it is likely that he would. Flamini had an excellent year, but I hold the firm opinion that every Cesc partner gets the extraordinary benefit of limited pressure when on the ball.

 

[Swish]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

I don't want to piss on the parade or anything, after all, I'm please Song is gaining praise, it can only help further Arsenal...

or can it?

Song got heaps of praise and did well when he was with Charlton, he came back to us and looked the same as before, shaky and unconfident.

He then went to the ACN and got massive amounts of praise in that as well, heck, he was billed as one of the players of the tournament (pity he got injured forthe final, that was harsh on him), but he still came back to us and still didn't really put in the type of performances I was expecting from all the accolades, granted there wasn't many games that he got, but I suppose the question is that whilst he gets all this praise from his Olympics performance, can he actually bring this to Arsenal and fulfill the praise he gets?

Sorry, off topic.

 

[gstew]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

I don't want to piss on the parade or anything, after all, I'm please Song is gaining praise, it can only help further Arsenal...

or can it?

Song got heaps of praise and did well when he was with Charlton, he came back to us and looked the same as before, shaky and unconfident.

He then went to the ACN and got massive amounts of praise in that as well, heck, he was billed as one of the players of the tournament (pity he got injured forthe final, that was harsh on him), but he still came back to us and still didn't really put in the type of performances I was expecting from all the accolades, granted there wasn't many games that he got, but I suppose the question is that whilst he gets all this praise from his Olympics performance, can he actually bring this to Arsenal and fulfill the praise he gets?

Sorry, off topic.

I guess we have differing opinions on his post-ACN performances. I thought that Song was very good at center back and that he showed improvement throughout his run in the side. But most important to me was that he was not ever beaten for speed. I always assumed from his body type and running style that he was slow. I'm comfortable with him at either CM or CB, but I hope that Wenger chooses CM. And we shouldn't forget that he is not yet 21.

 

[Swish]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

I dunno, maybe I expected a lot more and didn't see obvious improvements.

I'll keep an open mind when he comes back from the Olympics though.

 

[Anzac]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

OK so 3 points in the bag & Nasri already looks like he's got plenty to offer. A meh type of performance overall but considering this would be the equivalent of last season's mixed team, encouraging signs if we build from this, unlike last season where we were able to hit the ground running with most of our 1st team available from the outset.

 

[bigtimetopbanana]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

After the Cameroon red card, he actually played both CM and CB. In the overtime he was part of the attack build-up (didn't get as far as the Brazil goal box) and was also the last man back against the Brazil attacks. He was last man for both goals, but made superb defensive plays on both. The first one, he made up 5 yards and cut down the angle on Sobis who was put clear through. If not for terrible play by the goalkeeper Song would have closed him down. It is strange to me as Song never seems very fast, but he is never beaten for speed. And in this case he was dramatically faster than the Brazilian striker. The second goal was also not his fault, as he did all he could do. He tracked Marcelo who had position on him and was at full speed for a give/go while our Alex had to turn and sprint with him. And Marcelo struck the return pass off his outer shin (without breaking stride) with Alex right on him.

gstew, great report, but strangely I saw his game completely differently... I felt he was directly at fault for the first goal since he played Sobis onside when the Cameroon line was trying to come out. For the second, he and his central defensive partner let the striker go right through the middle of them, way too much width and playing a zonal defence rather than watching where the attacker was running and cutting the line off. (Mind you, with this trait he'll fit straight in at Arsenal!). He also gave away a stupid free kick right outside the box by obviously chopping down his man, in Ronaldinho territory. Not intelligent at all.

Oh well.... it's all great experience.

Now...... Angel Di Maria for the Argies... wow, we should have picked him up last year !!!! sorry, off topic. :wink:

 

[patrick42uk]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

Interesting, it appears that Walcott has lost the support of Arsenal-Mania. Wonder how that'll effect him. Ultimately if he's not scoring, he needs to be left out. I think when you look at what he's able to offer, it's goals or nothing.

Also according to Wenger, he'll try for another signing but can't promise anything except for the fact he'll try. Ultimately i want us to get in a veteran waiting to retire. I think Denilson has what it takes to partner Cesc.

e

Dont think he has lost anyone's support. Also dont think he gives a **** what people on Arsenal-mania think.

He offers assists and the goals. Walcott = penetration = goals and assists. Penetration depends on creativity and an accurate final pass. That has been lacking this last two games, so the player that benefits the most from that, Theo, suffers. When we get up to speed with our passing, which should happen when Cesc returns, we will see why Theo is in the team.

 

[Don Pacifico]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

The team was crying out for Eddy today.

We all know finishing is not one of Ade's strengths and predictably he cost us a couple of goals today. Things are only going to get worse if the fans get even more on his back than they already were today.

 

[McIntyre]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

My verdict is as follows:

Nasri = quality, not sure how he'll hold up against more physical opposition though. But he likes to shoot :bounce . How long before Wenger puts a stop to that?

Adebayor = too desperate to please. So he should be though, after his lies and treachery during the summer. Start scoring and you may be forgiven.

Walcott = a much better right winger than Eboue. Theo could've been kneecapped before the game and he'd still offer more balance to the midfield than Eboue. Sagna got on the overlap so much more than in pre-season games thanks to the threat Theo offered.

Gallas = not a captain. Way to inspire confidence by going to square up with Djourou when he criticises your defensive line :roll: . Right or wrong deal with it like an adult. Thank God Almunia stepped in and told him to grow up.

Toure = not a midfielder (anymore (or ever?))

Clichy and Sagna = legends

Bendtner = getting better

Denilson = coping ok. Still needs replacing at DM to allow him attacking freedom like for the Nasri goal.

RVP = an increasing liability. I think the guy's fantastic when he plays but he'll never get up to full speed if he doesn't get a run of games. Otherwise, his fleeting appearances disrupt the team.

Almunia = still dodgy. Dodgy off his line but can stop a shot when it comes his way.

Eboue = epitome of squad player. As far as I'm concerned he is reserve right back, that's all. But considering he seems to be Arsène's adopted son (given his misplaced faith in him!), I guess he can fill in at other positions if we're DESPERATE. Played okay today though.

Djourou = better than Senderos....so far. Looks a LONG way from the finished article.


Verdict = we need Cesc and Rosicky on the pitch, and everybody playing in their proper positions, if we're gonna get anywhere near the league.

Anyway, one game down, 3 points, a few positives. Things can only get better.

 

[Anzac]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

I've mentioned this in a couple of the player threads so I'll say it here as well. My concerns from today are in regard to the way we lost our shape in attack, and our lack of making any changes until late in the game to compensate.

IMO as WBA defended deeper our players were able to spend more time on the ball individually so we lost our crisp passing interchange. This then meant the defence wasn't really being moved about & they were able to control the space around the area.

Walcott offered little width & wanted to get into the box all the time. Consequently our right side collapsed infield & Ade went left looking for the ball & space to make himself available. When he did he was on the left flank and our penetration down that side disappeared when he got the ball, unlike the 1st half when Ade was more central & we didn't spend so much time on the ball.

Our left side was still our most dangerous, but with Ade there we didn't have the same opportunities for the overlapping runs by Clichy that we saw in the 1st half. With our midfield able to bring the ball forward Bendtner's role as link became redundant as he was squeezed out of the game. The signs of this happening were there late in the 1st half as seen in both Gallas & Eboue bringing the ball forward into shooting positions.

AW should have seen this & taken action a lot sooner. IMO our game style changed from that of being based upon crisp passing interchange, to that of individuals taking the ball up to the defensive line before looking to pass, or then trying to take the defender on with the ball. This has been the typical reaction when we play against a deep set defence, and I didn't see any solutions offered today. For me I was looking to see a change in tactics to adress this, but all we got were the usual late player changes - one forward & a defender to tighten it up. Even then IMO AW got his subs wrong - I'd have taken Ade off rather than Bendtner, primarily to open up our left flank, and I'd have put Eboue on the right in place of Walcott with TOure playing in the middle. If Toure wasn't fit enough to play centrally then I'd not have brought him on.

I also expected AW to have addressed this at half time, and if his instructions weren't followed I'd like to see changes made off the bench earlier around the 55 min mark.

 

[McIntyre]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

Even then IMO AW got his subs wrong - I'd have taken Ade off rather than Bendtner, primarily to open up our left flank, and I'd have put Eboue on the right in place of Walcott with Touré playing in the middle.

I agree that Arsène did nothing, tactically to help us grab that second goal and finish the game off. However, Bendtner was absolutely non-existent in the second half. For the first 15-20 minutes of that half I had forgotten he was on the pitch, whereas Adebayor got through on goal a good few times (I can't remember whether these instances were with Bendtner of RVP supporting him). The fact is, we need RVP and Adebayor on the pitch together as much as possible, they built up a decent partnership at the beginning of last season, and although Bendtner offers a different type of link-up play to RVP, I think it is best off building up the more subtle RVP/Adebayor partnership with Bendtner as the surprise package.

Bendtner seemed to disappear from the game once their defence retreated. When that happens it's either the perfect opportunity to bombard their area with Ade and Bendtner as the target men or, bring on van Persie to draw the defence out of position. I think he went for the right option. Crosses are meat and drink to Championship centre back pairings whereas the subtleties of van Persie'e game will f*ck them up.

Bendtner is no doubt getting better but today showed that, even against the Premiership new boys, he is still learning and is best off being used as an impact sub.

 

[sabret00the]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

Interesting, it appears that Walcott has lost the support of Arsenal-Mania. Wonder how that'll effect him. Ultimately if he's not scoring, he needs to be left out. I think when you look at what he's able to offer, it's goals or nothing.

Also according to Wenger, he'll try for another signing but can't promise anything except for the fact he'll try. Ultimately i want us to get in a veteran waiting to retire. I think Denilson has what it takes to partner Cesc.

e

Dont think he has lost anyone's support. Also dont think he gives a s**t what people on Arsenal-mania think.

He offers assists and the goals. Walcott = penetration = goals and assists. Penetration depends on creativity and an accurate final pass. That has been lacking this last two games, so the player that benefits the most from that, Theo, suffers. When we get up to speed with our passing, which should happen when Cesc returns, we will see why Theo is in the team.

Theo's problem today was simply that he had no one to play one-two's off. And thus everyone is blowing his performance out of proportion. That said, he'll always need to play next to, in front of a Cesc or Hleb for me. I think he'd be most effective up front at this moment in time.

 

[Anzac]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

Even then IMO AW got his subs wrong - I'd have taken Ade off rather than Bendtner, primarily to open up our left flank, and I'd have put Eboue on the right in place of Walcott with Touré playing in the middle.

I agree that Arsène did nothing, tactically to help us grab that second goal and finish the game off. However, Bendtner was absolutely non-existent in the second half. For the first 15-20 minutes of that half I had forgotten he was on the pitch, whereas Adebayor got through on goal a good few times (I can't remember whether these instances were with Bendtner of RVP supporting him). The fact is, we need RVP and Adebayor on the pitch together as much as possible, they built up a decent partnership at the beginning of last season, and although Bendtner offers a different type of link-up play to RVP, I think it is best off building up the more subtle RVP/Adebayor partnership with Bendtner as the surprise package.

Bendtner seemed to disappear from the game once their defence retreated. When that happens it's either the perfect opportunity to bombard their area with Ade and Bendtner as the target men or, bring on van Persie to draw the defence out of position. I think he went for the right option. Crosses are meat and drink to Championship centre back pairings whereas the subtleties of van Persie'e game will f*ck them up.

Bendtner is no doubt getting better but today showed that, even against the Premiership new boys, he is still learning and is best off being used as an impact sub.

I understand what you're saying and even agree to a certain extent, but for me the changes were required to be tactical as opposed letting it drift to the point of becoming players.

Bendtner for me got squeezed out of the game by our losing shape, and the change from WBA made his role redundant. For me that's a call AW should have made at half time - either we get back to our srisp interchange passing so as to utilise his role, or if not we dispense with the role & give him a new role in the attack.

Similarly Ade coming out wide left in the 2nd half effectively reduced our options down that side. If anything Ade should have gone wide right as Theo was always looking to cut inside. Ade going right would have dragged the defence & helped us to keep width & freed up space thru' the middle for Bendtner & Theo. Going left achieved nothing apart from getting camera time on the ball. Bendtner is our best forward in the air - yet we did very little to provide him with any opportunity to show this.

 

[Swish]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

I disagree, Bendtner was squeezed out because he didn't make any runs or any effort to come pick the ball up from midfield. He was missing for most of the game, he misplaced several key passes and the only time he popped up with any significance was when he had a free header from 10 yards out which went wildly wide.

Nobody squeezed Bendtner out except Bendtner himself.

 

[Anzac]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

I disagree, Bendtner was squeezed out because he didn't make any runs or any effort to come pick the ball up from midfield. He was missing for most of the game, he misplaced several key passes and the only time he popped up with any significance was when he had a free header from 10 yards out which went wildly wide.

Nobody squeezed Bendtner out except Bendtner himself.

In the 1st 30 mins we owned the match & Bendtner was linking play well down the left with Clichy & Nasri. Bendtner provided the pass for Clichy's ball to Denilson for Nasri's goal.

For me it was a call that should have been made by the Manager - the game had changed & so had our play - either the deeper link striker role was no longer required, or we should have stuck to our pattern & style of play.

In the 2nd half Bendtner took a higher role, but between Eboue shooting anytime he was outside the area, and Ade stopping play on the left & nothing coming from the right there wasn't a helluvalot he could do. Making deeper runs may have been an option, but equally there were opportunities on counter in the 2nd half where the ball was switched wide as opposed to the forward line.

 

[gstew]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

Anzac.... I love this truly intelligent tactical debate. I think you make excellent observations and points. But I have to agree with the others that Bendtner needed to come off. Once he gets lost it seems to me that he provides little throughout the rest of the game. It happens quite often. IMO, though, he is such a good prospect that he will grow out of this. I agree with you, though, that Wenger should have insisted that Ade should stay up top or go wide right more often. We should remember, though, that a striker with great movement (like Ade) is really what tears a retreating defense apart. I would rather that instead of Ade making fewer wide runs, that we would have others make bombing runs straight down the middle just after he has drawn his markers wide. Although this makes us a little vulnerable on the transition, we should do it anyway to take advantage of the fact that Ade gets a lot of attention and he drags his men away from goal more than most strikers. Another way to take advantage of this is to play Nasri right and Vela left. When Ade strays wide Vela will naturally take a striker's position up top within the flow of the play.

 

[kel varnsen]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

Interesting, it appears that Walcott has lost the support of Arsenal-Mania. Wonder how that'll effect him. Ultimately if he's not scoring, he needs to be left out. I think when you look at what he's able to offer, it's goals or nothing.

Also according to Wenger, he'll try for another signing but can't promise anything except for the fact he'll try. Ultimately i want us to get in a veteran waiting to retire. I think Denilson has what it takes to partner Cesc.

e

Dont think he has lost anyone's support. Also dont think he gives a s**t what people on Arsenal-mania think.

He offers assists and the goals. Walcott = penetration = goals and assists. Penetration depends on creativity and an accurate final pass. That has been lacking this last two games, so the player that benefits the most from that, Theo, suffers. When we get up to speed with our passing, which should happen when Cesc returns, we will see why Theo is in the team.

i respect your opinion patrick, but frankly this is bull. not necessarily because you're wrong, but rather because you ignore the underlying reson for it all. the reason we can't "speed up our passing", is because, among others, we have walcott in midfield. you can't have it both ways. you can't expect pace on our passing game, with "runners" in midfield. you have to chose. the midfield establish pressure and they accelerate our passing game. if we have just two creative midfielders, or just one like today, we are simply incapable of utliziing our "runners".

we need runners up front. not in midfield.

 

[thegame24]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

Was at the game today, first i have to say booing ade is just ridiculous.

As for the game we were good for 5 mins then it was the worst performance ive seen at home in a very long time, very boring, very weak and the passing game just abandonded us.

However, what else can you expect with average Bentdner, average Denilson, below average eboue and walcott who cant pass all on the same side.

Im actually hoping we get alonso now, would be great to have in the team cause we are useless without fabs.

 

[Anzac]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

gstew - see I view the performance based upon the tactics / formation / role / style, ahead of individual performances. If everything else is in place then I look to be critical of the player - much as I do when Eboue plays RM.

For me yesterday was a repeat of our usual problems breaking down a deep defence. As such it was a tactical situation first and foremost and that is the realm of the managerial team as opposed to the players on the pitch. The player's role is to try to execute the pattern determined by the Manager, so in that regard I'm more critical of the Manager than the players.

While I agree that Bendtner was a passenger for much of the game, I've also stated my reasoning as to why (role, collapse of the right side, midfield bringing the ball forward as opposed to passing, and Ade's stifling of the movement down the left). End result being that the ball wasn't coming near or thru' the middle unless it was Eboue having a shot. Under those circumstances ANY player who was trying to stick to his role would have struggled - either the tactics were wrong or the execution was, and as such Bendtener was limited in what he could do to change this. Bendtner's role as the 2nd striker precludes him from making those runs to the corners because his job is to link with the mids.

Ade's movement is always to the left simply because he is a right footed striker. By going left he can still shoot with some angle, whereas if he goes right he doesn't have the same shooting opportunity. It's purely a selfish thing about being a striker wanting the ball in a position that best suits him. Ade very rarely goes wide for any other reason than to get the ball with the purpose of having a shot at goal. He will only consider passing when he is unable to get s shooting option. Yet for me quite often what's best for Ade isn't always about what's best for the team. Ade does a lot of work on the field & spends a lot of time with the ball, but I do question how much of it is productive when he goes so wide - the CBs won't track such an obvious diversion so early, and by the time he goes across & the ball is worked to him the cover is set in the middle.

Yesterday our problems in our shape started from the collapse of the right side. Ade could have easily balanced this by making angled runs right as Theo was coming infield, but his natural instinct is to go left so as to keep the best opportunity for him to shoot. IMO there was absolutley no reason for Ade to go left in the 2nd half, except that he wanted the ball & wanted to shoot. By injecting himself into the movement early he stifled the movement and prevented the ball from reaching players in better positions. Bendtner may have allowed himself to drift out of the game, but for me he didn't detract from the performance, whereas IMO both Theo & Ade did with their positioning, along with Eboue's shooting & our mids bringing the ball forward too slowly / square. Just a side note - when Ade went wide Bendtner had to take the forward central role, thus allowing the space for Eboue to move into to shoot.

Bottom line - I know it's easy to look at the player not involved & say take them off as opposed to the player who is in everything. However sometimes looks are decieving and IMO either the tactics or execution were wrong, and AW left it too long to change them by changing players.

 

[Anzac]

Re: Arsenal v West Brom | 16-08-08 12:45GMT

Having said all that - I'd have liked to have seen AW swap players around on the pitch earlier in an attempt to keep our shape & game = Walcott LM, Eboue RM & Nasri in the middle with Denilson.

For me Nasri was the creative influence & intelligent / experienced enough to do the job, but was somewhat wasted on the left when we needed someone to run our game plan.