Ratings and post-match discussion vs ManC

[P_Gunner]

After watching the game a for a 2nd time, here are a few things that stood out for me:

1. Arshavin had a stinker and he is a lazy c... (Surely Rosicky must start now)

Arshavin is our second most productive player after Nasri...

Agreed.
He keeps getting goals and assists. Sure he's playing like **** but the fact is he's being productive. He could use a rest but certainly shouldn't be benched (especially for Rosicky, a player that can't finish to save his life)

 

[Anzac]

A few folks have pigeonholed Song playing a certain way so regardless of how he plays in his new role they won't like it. The argument that we have better players going forward completely ignores the fact that he still contributes a lot to our defensive game.

And for the record, Song had 4 misplaced passes, less than Cesc, Nasri, Arshavin and Denilson

Outlaw - You say it might not be prudent against the bigger sides but looking at the Chelsea and City games was that really the case?

I can't ever really remember feeling exposed defensively due to the midfield 3. I'd say against the bigger sides where we're likely to keep our focus is where it's more likely to work well, and games like West Brom where it may be exposed due to not respecting the opposition enough.

I feel we are exposed EVERY game on the counter because the 3 CMS operate vertically, and the B2B is often either high up the pitch or ahead of the ball.

As for keeping focus IMO that's been half the issue to date as we don't. Much of the goals we conceeded lat season was as a result of a lack of positional discipline as our CMs wanted to join the passing fest around the opposition area.

 

[fabo]

Arshavin deserves criticism for his casual passing, but I don't think tracking back is a big issue. Seems like an excuse for Clichy's inability to do his job.

Wouldn't consider dropping Arshavin unless Wenger feels someone can be more productive from LWF.

 

[Anzac]

As for AA = IMO he's becoming a liability outside the final 3rd, but can't fault his contribution in the final 3rd.

 

[Anzac]

I believe that Wenger wants to emulate the deep lying + combative midfield duo, that I was referring to a while back. Conventionally, the deep lying midfielder is essentially that, a player who remains deep and is focused on moving the ball efficiently from deep areas to the attackers. As this player is generally positioned deepest of the duo, the partner who is usually an aggressive ball winner is then afforded the freedom to press all over the pitch without being restricted to retaining his position, as say a lone DM would have to.

As we've seen so far, Wilshere and Denilson are usually the deepest midfielders, with Song playing considerably higher with the freedom to press. It should work in theory, but I'm not too sure whether we have the right players for it. Denilson, IMO, would be better as the deep lying midfielder, because he doesn't play with the same offensive urge as Wilshere does. It's imperative that the deployed player adheres to the title of his role, so that the midfield retains stability.

Song is also too offensive inclined as a ball winner, so we end up having both our CM's constantly performing outside of their job descriptions. We seem to have that covered with more fluid interchanging occuring within the two midfield positions, whereby if one does go forward, the partner is aware to occupy the vacated space. I'm not sure whether it's a prudent setup against the bigger sides though, as such interchanging can be exploited, due to it being impossible not to make mistakes when there is so much tactical and positional changes occuring within a bustling game.

Good post. IMO Song still moves like a CB playing B2B, and we have few options that have the dymanic movement to play B2B off the ball in cover defence.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

As for AA = IMO he's becoming a liability outside the final 3rd, but can't fault his contribution in the final 3rd.

It's as simple as that, really. He's pretty clueless outside the final third, but inside the final third he's our best player (yes, I said best). It's quite remarkable actually.

He's one of our best players and should absolutely not be dropped unless he's fatigued. Quality-wise he's up there with the best in the league.

 

[Anzac]

As for AA = IMO he's becoming a liability outside the final 3rd, but can't fault his contribution in the final 3rd.

It's as simple as that, really. He's pretty clueless outside the final third, but inside the final third he's our best player (yes, I said best). It's quite remarkable actually.

He's one of our best players and should absolutely not be dropped unless he's fatigued. Quality-wise he's up there with the best in the league.

Would be even better if AW set the team out to our attacking strengths for a change - as in the begining of last season, rather than this vertical midfield BS. Then we could have 3 forwards primarily looking to attack the goal instead of having the WFs covering the flanks because the CMs can't.

 

[Anzac]

I know that the deep playmaker is designed to improve our pace of transition out of defence, but I see no reason why this can't be achieved by playing a creative B2B & retaining the defensive holding player.

 

[Burnwinter]

Jog my memory Anzac but were we playing a flat three in midfield at the start of last season or something?

 

[outlaw_member]

A few folks have pigeonholed Song playing a certain way so regardless of how he plays in his new role they won't like it. The argument that we have better players going forward completely ignores the fact that he still contributes a lot to our defensive game.

And for the record, Song had 4 misplaced passes, less than Cesc, Nasri, Arshavin and Denilson

Outlaw - You say it might not be prudent against the bigger sides but looking at the Chelsea and City games was that really the case?

I can't ever really remember feeling exposed defensively due to the midfield 3. I'd say against the bigger sides where we're likely to keep our focus is where it's more likely to work well, and games like West Brom where it may be exposed due to not respecting the opposition enough.

I thought our midfield was all over the shop in the first half. Cesc was playing far too forward and neither Song or Denilson were adequately protecting the defence. We were being placed under pressure very easily, and they were able to get at our defenders with ease. We were much better in the second half, though.

 

[Captain]

As for AA = IMO he's becoming a liability outside the final 3rd, but can't fault his contribution in the final 3rd.

It's as simple as that, really. He's pretty clueless outside the final third, but inside the final third he's our best player (yes, I said best). It's quite remarkable actually.

Fabregas says you're lying.

 

[Anzac]

Jog my memory Anzac but were we playing a flat three in midfield at the start of last season or something?

IMO we were playing the 4213 with Cesc pushing forward from just ahead of the CM line & just behind the AMC hole. The other 2 CMs played support to press off the ball but also covered the flanks, meaning that we had a front 3 of AA-RVP-Eduardo attacking the box & interchanging at will without needing to worry about providing primary cover to the flanks. Ironically A v Everton AA tracked back & made a tackle to win possession just outside our area that resulted in Cesc scoring.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

It's as simple as that, really. He's pretty clueless outside the final third, but inside the final third he's our best player (yes, I said best). It's quite remarkable actually.

Fabregas says you're lying.

Meh, it's pretty close, but Arshavin just edges it for me. Cesc is a far superior all-round footballer though. He's easily Shava's closest competition, I'll give you that.

 

[yuvken]

I thought our midfield was all over the shop in the first half. Cesc was playing far too forward and neither Song or Denilson were adequately protecting the defence. We were being placed under pressure very easily, and they were able to get at our defenders with ease.

I see many suggestions here about how to deploy (and many of them are frankly just creative names flying about). We do know Song has an important role to play in breaking up play, we know Jack is a new factor in our formula, we know that when CMs do cover for each other well we can achieve much (both quick distribution out of D, effective pressure up field and freedom to exploit movement, and more).
What we can't take for granted is that this will be mistake free, and we need to take into account the price of such mistakes. Chelsea and Manu hurt us when we let them in the last few games. Against such opposition (and on some occasions against lesser teams) the gain from pressure high up (and song attacking) does not compare with the risk.
Our manager likes to leave much freedom and build on the players to know. This has many benefits (at least theoretically), as there are many variables involved (how good it works/each one is/opposition is on the day, just as examples), but it also leaves many holes, as particularly evident against a really good team. Citeh in fact did not make us pay (where we did in the past), partly thanx to our new signing GK, partly luck.
Perhaps we should also think different when our D has DJ rather than TV (reasonable risk, etc.).
The more our talented mid players settle in, the more consistent their form is, that is when the free, changing position, attack and cover, pressure high up will work. But it's always fragile and risky, and should always have the opposition in mind.

 

[Captain]

It's as simple as that, really. He's pretty clueless outside the final third, but inside the final third he's our best player (yes, I said best). It's quite remarkable actually.

Fabregas says you're lying.

Meh, it's pretty close, but Arshavin just edges it for me. Cesc is a far superior all-round footballer though. He's easily Shava's closest competition, I'll give you that.

Fabregas is miles better than Arshavin in every conceivable way that a player can be.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Fabregas is miles better than Arshavin in every conceivable way that a player can be.

What on earth is this statement supposed to achieve? It's so obviously false, yet you seem to be saying it to prove a point. How about speed? Acceleration? Dribbling? Finishing? Weaker foot? If you think Cesc is superior to Arshavin in every single facet of football, you're very mistaken.

I've already stated that "Cesc is a far superior all-round footballer". In fact, he's the best midfielder in the world. Don't confuse that with being better than every other player in the world at everything in the world.

 

[Captain]

It means exactly what it says.

And yes, Cesc is a better dribbler and a better finisher.

 

[yuvken]

... and he's a better singer too!



(yeah, I'm with you, Ron. I think Capi wants to say that they really shouldn't even be compared, which is probably true)
EDIT: errr, no, that's not what he meant

 

[outlaw_member]

Arshavin is slowly but surely turning ****. Many of his performances are just laughably bad. He's worse than Eboue in the middle third.

Although, he could do with an offensive role which confines him to that area of the pitch. The deeper he moves, the greater a liability he becomes.

 

[Burnwinter]

One thing I do think is that it's a little bit of a mistake to cite Arshavin's recent stats as evidence of his efficiency. Nasri has similar figures and I think it could be argued it has as much to do with the position as the player.

Wouldn't mind seeing Wenger experiment with Arshavin's place in the squad a bit, both to spur him on and to see if we can benefit from having a player who manages a good all-round contribution as well, perhaps, as those vital moments which make Arshavin so useful.