Stoke vs Arsenal 8/5/2011, 14:05GMT

[dyeruz]

Wenger : "Look Pat" *pointing to the field* "X=Y2+A1-3V¬H20?"
Pat Rice : "Yeah..*nodding* yeah"
Wenger : "I don't know? *spreading his arms wide, quizzically* this big, it was this big, p over 8 2 fourths! *shrugging his shoulders*"
Pat Rice: *Nodding, adjusting his glasses* "Yeah..yeah"
Gibbs runs over
Gibbs : "Boss they're swamping us and Jermaine just called me his b*tch, what should I do?"
Wenger : "Tuck inside more and give him more space to run and use your blistering pace to cover Laurent *whispering* do you understand? XC-R2=1wq, it is basic equation, I taught you all this during defensive science 101"
Gibbs with a glazed over look "Ummm Yeah..*nodding* yeah"

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Wenger : "Look Pat" *pointing to the field* "X=Y2+A1-3V¬H20?"
Pat Rice : "Yeah..*nodding* yeah"
Wenger : "I don't know? *spreading his arms wide, quizzically* this big, it was this big, p over 8 2 fourths! *shrugging his shoulders*"
Pat Rice: *Nodding, adjusting his glasses* "Yeah..yeah"
Gibbs runs over
Gibbs : "Boss they're swamping us and Jermaine just called me his b*tch, what should I do?"
Wenger : "Tuck inside more and give him more space to run and use your blistering pace to cover Laurent *whispering* do you understand? XC-R2=1wq, it is basic equation, I taught you all this during defensive science 101"
Gibbs with a glazed over look "Ummm Yeah..*nodding* yeah"

 

[ebouenolike]

Really really gutless. Being just about the only person wearing an Arsenal shirt wasn't fun.

Arsène, the team and the directors need to take a good hard look at themselves.

 

[OohtobeaGoonerGal]

Wenger : "Look Pat" *pointing to the field* "X=Y2+A1-3V¬H20?"
Pat Rice : "Yeah..*nodding* yeah"
Wenger : "I don't know? *spreading his arms wide, quizzically* this big, it was this big, p over 8 2 fourths! *shrugging his shoulders*"
Pat Rice: *Nodding, adjusting his glasses* "Yeah..yeah"
Gibbs runs over
Gibbs : "Boss they're swamping us and Jermaine just called me his b*tch, what should I do?"
Wenger : "Tuck inside more and give him more space to run and use your blistering pace to cover Laurent *whispering* do you understand? XC-R2=1wq, it is basic equation, I taught you all this during defensive science 101"
Gibbs with a glazed over look "Ummm Yeah..*nodding* yeah"

 

[Big Poppa]

Anyone fancy a rational discussion?

We were in comfortable and barely threatened by Stoke before they scored. Trouble is, they didn't need to play well to do so whereas we needed passing of surgical precision. We've conceded the least number of goals from open play and scored the highest number of goals from open play this season. Conversely we've scored the least number of goals from set pieces and conceded the most.

Those picking on individuals need to take a step back and see the obvious. We need to re-balance our team dynamic by tweaking one or two positions to give us better aerial prowess. Beyond that, we have a pretty damn good team. The strengths and weaknesses of our game are a little too easily projected to opponents like Stoke who happen to be very good at what we are very bad at. Let's not distort reality to suit our agenda against a few players who we don't like, even if we know they aren't perfect every week.

We would have lost 2-1, if only the open goal play have counted. Apart from Robin, none of our players look genuinly like scoring, which is not connected to the set pieces really - if it wasn't for Robin, we would have really suffered to score goals since January.

I disagree (respectfully) that we would have lost. The first goal that we conceded from a cheap free kick and poor set piece defending allowed Stoke to sit back, defend their lead and try to hit us on the break. I really do think it's more difficult to score against a team like Stoke who are built to absorb pressure once you fall a goal behind. So many times you see us build wave after wave of attacks made up of multiple intricate passes, where we fail to get a goal but out of nowhere get done by a simple ball into our box. Improving our capability to deal with that pressure could make a seismic difference to our fortunes.

 

[Big Poppa]

Anyone fancy a rational discussion?

We were in comfortable and barely threatened by Stoke before they scored. Trouble is, they didn't need to play well to do so whereas we needed passing of surgical precision. We've conceded the least number of goals from open play and scored the highest number of goals from open play this season. Conversely we've scored the least number of goals from set pieces and conceded the most.

Those picking on individuals need to take a step back and see the obvious. We need to re-balance our team dynamic by tweaking one or two positions to give us better aerial prowess. Beyond that, we have a pretty damn good team. The strengths and weaknesses of our game are a little too easily projected to opponents like Stoke who happen to be very good at what we are very bad at. Let's not distort reality to suit our agenda against a few players who we don't like, even if we know they aren't perfect every week.

Very well put there Frank White.

As good as it is though, how close do we find ourselves close to the completed article? Sure a manager of Wenger's calibre would be able to take stock and rethink his approach going forward. Reading two biographies written on Wenger the one point which comes across very clearly is his desire and ability to keep analysing and enhancing his approach to the game.

The last six years looks like one constant mistake after the other, rinse and repeat. Surely we need answers as to why this happens so often and so expected these days. Surely we should ask how likely it will be that things will change?

So to answer your post, Poppa, Ill say we may have a fantastic team on the brink yes, but do we more importantly see the signs or drive for us to realise this thought?

I sense something different this time around (I know, I know but hear me out) about how Wenger sees our weaknesses. He has always been meticulously aware of both our strengths and weaknesses but tended to focus on a more intrinsic "learned" approach to dealing with them. While he may still do that, I think he's taken account of the changed landscape of the Premier League and recognises that we need a little bit of external help to deal with the different competitive obstacles we face. Small things of the pitch like our tour of Asia this Summer, change of assistant coach and new ownership with fresh ideas seem to be something he's embraced and I hope it's the start of the new "cosmopolitan" Arsène.

 

[AshburtonGhost]

The manager and team can go get ****ed after that, weak as ****ing piss.

 

[Freagle]

Thanks Big Poppa, top post. Around 6 posts only in 22 pages summarized the match for me. Didn't watch it and even though we lost, I still wanted to watch it.

Definitely a bitter pill to swallow. My brother kept sending me text messages updating me on the match. I honestly thought he was having a laugh when he said we lost 3-1. To my surprise, I log on Arsenal-Mania and the first thing I do is smash the mouse button as fast as I can (like that's going to work) and try to read the match discussion. A couple of pages in and I scrolled up wondering if somehow I clicked Lobby instead of Arsenal Talk.

Bah, I would love to share my opinions on the match but unfortunately, I am not in a position to do so. With that said, I hope some fellow members around here can answer a couple of questions. Thanks in advance.

1) I read that the first goal we conceded was a set-piece, if that's the case, how were we structured in defence? Were were playing zonal or man marking? Was there any sort of communication between the players?

2) When Bendtner & Chamakh came on in 2nd half, what was our formation exactly? 4-3-3? 4-2-4?

3) I read that Walcott was ineffective, was it his dribbling or his passing that let him down? Was there left back on his back the whole time or did he stroll up-front and leave space for Theo?

I believe those questions can help me at least assess or imagine what happened on the pitch. I will definitely watch the replay tomorrow but would also like to hear a couple of your answers and opinions.

Defence has been an issue and Arsène from his post-match seems to acknowledge that. I don't believe adding a couple of new bodies is our 'only' answer but I think Arsène has been walking on that line for a long time now. I think he used to believe he can restructure or reshape the thinking behind our defence and only from our previous games he has come to realize that it is impossible. I for one would welcome a new addition at the back but I think it would be immature to sign a new player without changing the philosophy of our defence. We need to work hard at training to improve our defence, bring a couple of players back and teach them a thing or two. I agree with Big Poppas post, agree with everything he said. We do sometimes (including me) give some irrational views due to the strain of inconsistent performances. It really hurts when we Arsenal fans have a million thoughts and views on how to improve our team, yet only a few of us step-back and actually give a rational view about our shortcomings. I would like to applaud Big Poppa for actually taking that step back and encouraging fans like me to do so.

@Dyeruz: GENIUS! Can't stop laughing!

 

[Herbas]

2) When Bendtner & Chamakh came on in 2nd half, what was our formation exactly? 4-3-3? 4-2-4?

3) I read that Walcott was ineffective, was it his dribbling or his passing that let him down? Was there left back on his back the whole time or did he stroll up-front and leave space for Theo?

I watched only the 2nd half.

2) I barely understood what formation we were playing. RvP was dropping deep (similar to Cesc position), both Chamakh and Bendtner occasionally were on the left side (and obsctructing each other). I think our formation chaotically switched between 433 and 424 (mainly due to RvP who was acting as a striker or AM).

3) Theo looked really poor. Miscontrolled balls, lost the ball in VERY simple places, didn't beat his man at all. He looked without any confidence or hope to do anything. He was that bad

 

[flobaba]

Thanks Big Poppa, top post. Around 6 posts only in 22 pages summarized the match for me. Didn't watch it and even though we lost, I still wanted to watch it.

I am relatively sure you don't even watch 50% of Arsenal games. Why?

 

[General]

There is a tendency to overanalyse our problems but you look at the past few seasons and you just cannot miss the steady repetition of the issues, despite the change in playing personnel. For every goal we concede I can find you several other examples of the same failings. As satisfying as it was that false dawn against United two weeks ago didn't fool everyone. We could play this very same game against Stoke in 48hours and you would almost certainly see the same mistakes being repeated, if not the same result. Why?

 

[McIntyre]

Wenger has some serious work to do over the summer. Our defense is embarrassing.

Indeed. But the most serious work is getting these useless f*cks who keep conceding goals from set-pieces on the training field and just peppering them with corners and set-pieces.

Get a quality defensive coach and a quality attacking coach in and get them doing attack vs defence drills from set-pieces perpetually until it becomes second nature.

All these defenders know how to play football. They were blatantly bought specifically because they know how to play a pass. So how much longer must we persist with them not being able to defend a simple ball into the box?

Buying a "tall, commanding centre-back" as the media insist we need will not automatically solve that problem. It'll just mean that when he's in the team we're sorted; when he's not we're f*cked!

What we need is to teach those who we already have how to defend.

Wenger could save us all the money he's going to end up spending on new defenders if he just hired us a defensive coach who's going to drill these f*ckers into a solid unit!

 

[fabo]

Expected result.

 

[progman07]

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/sagna-we-are-too-nice-when-we-defend" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archiv ... -we-defend</a>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"I think we are too nice, we have to fight a bit more," Sagna told Arsenal TV Online after the game.

"We have to push them as much as they push us and be a bit more 'killer'. We are not defending as well as we have to and against big players like they [Stoke] are it is very difficult.

"It can be put right on the training ground because it is in our mind. We know we are very good players but sometimes we have to fight a bit more.

"We didn't do that as much as we did it last week [against Manchester United]. We have to put in performances week after week and fight even more.

"We didn't deserve to win on Sunday. We didn't give enough, we didn't play as we can and that's what happens when you don't give the maximum - you get beaten everywhere."

I wonder how they not get bored of TALKING. They talk the same after and before every game, yet fail to act according to them. Especially a defender, who for example was beaten and failed to track the scorer (as far as I remember) for their 2nd goal.

If I were Sagna, I'd say "we will discuss the conclusions tomorrow, no need to talk more about it right now", because that's the truth - no bullshitting about "improving next time" after every bad game, stating the obvious.

 

[fabo]

Re: Stoke Vs Arsenal 8/5/2011, 14.05GMT

I fear the worst.

Weak links at the back, think the midfield will struggle away from home, midget attackers who kill our general play.

All the makings of an upset IMO.

Those "midgets up front" provided 31 goals, and at least the same amount of assists this season, despite none of them playing all season. Terrible.

Could have done with some goals today eh.

 

[fabo]

Re: Stoke Vs Arsenal 8/5/2011, 14.05GMT

I fear the worst.

Weak links at the back, think the midfield will struggle away from home, midget attackers who kill our general play.

All the makings of an upset IMO.

You are one of the most pessimistic people I've ever seen post . Can't see our defence being that much of a problem tbh, Kos and JD should deal with that no mark Walters and the man who can ONLY head a ball Kenwyne Jones.

I'm hoping for a win with Ramsey getting on the score sheet.

Yeah the defence is no problem, let's persevere with Koscielny who is crap.

 

[progman07]

Re: Stoke Vs Arsenal 8/5/2011, 14.05GMT

I fear the worst.

Weak links at the back, think the midfield will struggle away from home, midget attackers who kill our general play.

All the makings of an upset IMO.

Those "midgets up front" provided 31 goals, and at least the same amount of assists this season, despite none of them playing all season. Terrible.

Could have done with some goals today eh.

Robin scored, didn't he? Unless you were only talking about Shava and Theo, one of them subbed at half-time, the other not getting any useful service.

Our attacking issues aren't today's personnel up front, however negative we are looking at it. Robin is world class, Theo is a very good and useful player, and Arshavin is an experienced player played out of position, and out of form. He will not beat defenders out wide in the Premiership, let's face it, but he could probably hurt the opposition with his central play. Not his fault he isn't playing there.

 

[AnthonyG]

Re: Stoke Vs Arsenal 8/5/2011, 14.05GMT

Yeah the defence is no problem, let's persevere with Koscielny who is crap.

Kos was easily one of our best players today. And you don't get to gloat over your autobot-posts, you just don't. If it were up to you and your pre-match 'predictions', we'd have had 2 wins, 18 draws, and 16 losses.

 

[fabo]

Yeah our attack is great.

I love how boring and predictable we are, especially how static everyone is.

Walcott starting tells you everything that is wrong with AFC.

 

[stiiphunn]

Wenger has some serious work to do over the summer. Our defense is embarrassing.

Indeed. But the most serious work is getting these useless f*cks who keep conceding goals from set-pieces on the training field and just peppering them with corners and set-pieces.

Get a quality defensive coach and a quality attacking coach in and get them doing attack vs defence drills from set-pieces perpetually until it becomes second nature.

All these defenders know how to play football. They were blatantly bought specifically because they know how to play a pass. So how much longer must we persist with them not being able to defend a simple ball into the box?

Buying a "tall, commanding centre-back" as the media insist we need will not automatically solve that problem. It'll just mean that when he's in the team we're sorted; when he's not we're f*cked!

What we need is to teach those who we already have how to defend.

Wenger could save us all the money he's going to end up spending on new defenders if he just hired us a defensive coach who's going to drill these f*ckers into a solid unit!

I think it's more a problem of attitude and focus on set pieces. You can practice as much as you want, and be as tall as you want, at the end of the day what matters is how focused and aggressive you are.

Defending set pieces should be the easiest thing in the world. One eye on the ball, one eye on your opponent. And you do not leave him alone. It is that easy. Push him around if needed but do not leave him alone.

Which is why the goals we concede are even more unforgivable. The players are not focused enough and do not put in the effort they should produce. They should be ashamed of themselves.