• ! ! ! IMPORTANT MESSAGE ! ! !

    Discussions about police investigations

    In light of recent developments about a player from Premier League being arrested and until there is an official announcement, ALL users should refrain from discussing or speculating about situations around personal off-pitch matters related to any Arsenal player. This is to protect you and the forum.

    Users who disregard this reminder will be issued warnings and their posts will get deleted from public.

UCL: Porto (A) Wed 17th Feb 19.45 ITV1

Captain

Established Member
Every midfield in the world makes alot of mistakes. That's football and is why you shouldn't micro-analyse every detail. It's easier to ignore them when you win but just as a recent example, Scholes and Carrick gave the ball to Ronaldinho allowing him a free run at their central defenders 2-3 times in the first half alone against Milan but they managed to win the game 3-1. I don't really want to talk about mentality and whatever else, I'm just pointing out that even the top teams make mistakes.

What you can question is why we are so easily stretched when one of our players does make a mistake and it's because a number of players, from front to back, aren't concentrating and aren't taking up their correct positions on the pitch to at least stem the tide a little.

You can say that Denilson isn't tracking back but why is the oppositions striker standing free in a 20 yard gap from defence to midfield. Diaby is getting caught square but why when that happens isn't anyone even remotely close enough to put the player carrying the ball under pressure (although to give Song his due, he does try but he can't everywhere by himself).

A large factor, in my opinion, is that we are stretched to the limit by the fact that one of our midfielders is going awol and the wide forwards aren't giving the opposition anything to think about. Too much reactive rather than proactive defending all over the pitch.

There is also an element of stupidity and in this case I'm going to mention something that Cesc does because he is supposed to be our most intelligent player; why on earth does Cesc make a strikers movement when the opposition holding player recieves the ball? 8/10 Cesc will make a run to the opposition goalside of the player as if a top level midfielder is going to make a blind pass back towards his defence. At least give us a chance by putting some proper pressure on the guy receiving the ball. Give himself a chance by being in front of the play rather than behind it.

I mentioned yesterday that I don't like Nasri and Rosicky both playing because even though in theory they do alot more running and do make the occassional tackle, again it is reactive. Neither press, neither stand in particularly good defensive positions and they aren't really asking the opposition any questions with their movement. It goes even further when you then have Arshavin getting bossed all over the place by two blokes twice his size in the middle of the pitch.

Football is a simple game, you don't need world beaters in every position (although that is nice too) and you can't expect even the best players to be perfect in every way but you can expect them to perform their most basic functions on a pitch to a high level.

Throw in some kamikaze goalkeeping and some horrid defending from the back line and these things all start to add up and create situations that are practically impossible to defend against. It's not just the two guys in midfield making a few mistakes here and there that is killing us even if that is the engine room.

For what it's worth, I don't believe that we have played well since VanPersie went down and I would have made him captain ahead of Cesc.

(some of this will be jumbled as I typed it from the hip in the **** little box at the bottom).
 

Del Boy

Established Member
Meatwad said:
Del Boy said:
Also I haven't seen anyone mention how * Diaby was in the last minute.

Last few seconds of the match the ball rolls to him on the edge of the box and he REFUSES to shoot, instead takes several touches and loses it.

What a f****g idiot.
he didn't shoot, but he didn't lose the ball. he passed it out to the wing and i think sagna put in a cross that was a little too deep for walcott at the back post.

He HAD to shoot though. It was the last 10 seconds of the match.

Instead he gives it to Sagna who puts in another disgraceful cross. We all know what happens when our fullback cross. Bunch of jokers.
 

ricky1985

Established Member
It's undoubtedly a problem that runs deeper than just 2 positions in the team, but I don't think you can underestmiate the impact Diaby and Denilson's complete lack of awareness and intelligence in a defensive sense makes to the team. So many of Porto's chances yesterday were created because one of the 2 midfielders (and lets make that clear, Fabregas was not a midfielder yesterday, he had completely different responsibilites from both Diaby and Denilson) got it wrong in a given situation. Either they stood off a man when they should have pressed, pressed when they should stood off, tracked the wrong man, or didn't bother to track anyone at all. Every single player on the pitch made mistakes yesterday, and the best players in the world do too, but Diaby, Denilson, and Clichy were fundamental to our chances of defensive success, and they made more mistakes than anyone else, and ridiculous mistakes at times too.
 

Meatwad

Well-Known Member
Del Boy said:
Meatwad said:
Del Boy said:
Also I haven't seen anyone mention how * Diaby was in the last minute.

Last few seconds of the match the ball rolls to him on the edge of the box and he REFUSES to shoot, instead takes several touches and loses it.

What a f****g idiot.
he didn't shoot, but he didn't lose the ball. he passed it out to the wing and i think sagna put in a cross that was a little too deep for walcott at the back post.

He HAD to shoot though. It was the last 10 seconds of the match.

Instead he gives it to Sagna who puts in another disgraceful cross. We all know what happens when our fullback cross. Bunch of jokers.
why he chose not to shoot is on him. he seems to have been carrying an injury in the latter stages of the match and now he's out. and choosing to shoot doesn't guarantee anything either. a defender could easily block it, he could blaze it over, hit it tamely and the keeper catches it easily. but that wasn't the reason i responded to you anwyay. you said he lost possession and was an idiot because he lost possession after passing up a shot when that wasn't the case. refusing to shoot doesn't make you an idiot. the odds of him scoring in that situation weren't greater than sagna putting in a good cross to theo at the back post.
 

Captain

Established Member
ricky1985 said:
It's undoubtedly a problem that runs deeper than just 2 positions in the team, but I don't think you can underestmiate the impact Diaby and Denilson's complete lack of awareness and intelligence in a defensive sense makes to the team. So many of Porto's chances yesterday were created because one of the 2 midfielders (and lets make that clear, Fabregas was not a midfielder yesterday, he had completely different responsibilites from both Diaby and Denilson) got it wrong in a given situation. Either they stood off a man when they should have pressed, pressed when they should stood off, tracked the wrong man, or didn't bother to track anyone at all. Every single player on the pitch made mistakes yesterday, and the best players in the world do too, but Diaby, Denilson, and Clichy were fundamental to our chances of defensive success, and they made more mistakes than anyone else, and ridiculous mistakes at times too.

That's where we disagree because everybody is fundamental to defensive success in my opinion. I'll also make it clear that Fabregas, like everyone, always has defensive responsibilities and he (along with some others) would do well to remember that.
 

ricky1985

Established Member
Everyone of course has defensive responsibility, but to varying degrees. Diaby and Denilson were responsible for controlling the space in front of the back 4 and shutting down attacks through that area, Fabregas had a responsibility to defend from the front.
 

Captain

Established Member
Like I said, we see if differently. If our alleged third midfielder has a responsibility to defend from the front then Wenger has got it severely wrong and we are ****ed and he should go.

As it happens, I see Cesc busting forward to tackle central defenders and telling Bendtner, who was closer anyway, to drop into midfield; Bendtner has a "what the ****?" expression and that tells me all that I need to know about what they are told in training versus what is happening on the pitch.
 

ricky1985

Established Member
I think it was as clear as day, and has been for over a month now, that Fabregas has played as a second striker, and not as the third midfielder. Diaby and Denilson have played noticeably deeper.

Wenger has instructed Cesc to do what he is currently doing. Rightly or wrongly.
 

Captain

Established Member
I don't think he has so it isn't anywhere near being 'clear as day'.

Could argue that all day but either way, it doesn't matter because he isn't defending from the front or helping to hold the midfield and the fact that he is one of three players (including those wide) doing it is exactly why our midfield is so porous.
 

Timleaf

Established Member
We have too many players that aren't willing to sacrifice their attacking instincts for the good of the team-Cesc, Diaby, Song, TV, Gallas, Arshavin etc, etc.

Then there are players who put in a decent shift but dont actually switch on mentally when defending and are prone to losing concentration-Nasri, Rosicky, Walcott.
 

Klaus Daimler

Established Member
Cesc has been playing this way for a while now, and I think it is because we're lacking so many players who can make a difference in front of goal. Just browsing through our injury record Vela, Eduardo and Walcott should have been back around january. Instead they've all been injured most of the time. Had it not been for Arshavin and a welcome improvement to Diaby we would not have had any player at all with any kind of cutting edge.
 

MDGoonah41

Established Member
ricky1985 said:
I think it was as clear as day, and has been for over a month now, that Fabregas has played as a second striker, and not as the third midfielder. Diaby and Denilson have played noticeably deeper.

Wenger has instructed Cesc to do what he is currently doing. Rightly or wrongly.

Then maybe its time to ask questions of Wenger if he thinks a 4-2-4 formation can really work.

I think at this point in Cesc's career, the question is; is he Andrea Pirlo or Kaka? Pirlo made his bones as a deep lying play maker, his range of passing was excellent, and he was the heart of the Milan midfield. But in that role, he never moved as high up the pitch as Cesc does now (or at least not the times I've seen him play for Milan, I know he plays further up in the Italy setup) and he was always protected in the midfield by two dedicated, defensive minded midfielders in Ambrosini and Gattuso. In our current midfield, neither Song, Diaby or Denilson has the defensive knowhow of those two. If Cesc is more Kaka than Pirlo, then he needs to be given a free role in front of 3 midfielders, paired alongside Arshavin, and played behind a central striker. Its not a traditional #10, as I don't consider Kaka a #10, its more of a roaming role. He and Arshavin are both technically gifted enough to move all over the pitch, interchanging, and trying to create.

We do not have the midfield personnel to accommodate Cesc running all over the pitch in a 4-3-3. If he is a Pirlo type, then he needs to start deeper and get back into position quicker when we lose the ball. He also needs to play centrally, with two of the three in Song, Diaby and Denilson flanking him, not him starting on the right side. When he pushes up with the ball, both Diaby and Denilson need to retreat back, helping to cover the left center and right center of the pitch. If he's going to be given a free role like Kaka had at Milan, then his defensive responsibilities will be absolved, as he'll have 3 midfielders behind him on most occasions.
 

Timleaf

Established Member
He's certainly no Pirlo. Pirlo is just about the most intelligent and tactically disciplined midfielder, considering the attacking talent he has, I've ever seen.
 

Ron Burgundy

Established Member
Timleaf said:
He's certainly no Pirlo. Pirlo is just about the most intelligent and tactically disciplined midfielder, considering the attacking talent he has, I've ever seen.
Just in case that was directed towards me, I never said he was Pirlo. I said he's inbetween Pirlo and Kaka.
On a sort-of-related note, I've always felt that while Pirlo's a very good player, he's overrated.
 

Nela

Established Member
The whole team is just really tactically undisciplined. And Cesc is part of that.

In games like the one against Porto, it's important that he sit a bit deeper and help control the midfield so that he can dictate the tempo of the game. He didn't do that and we found it difficult to take control. It doesn't help that Nasri and Rosicky also don't seem to have any tactical discipline and can't keep our shape.

Watching those two in particular try to defend as Porto were countering was painful. Nasri did exactly what he did against Chelsea where his lack of discipline and complete unawareness of what it means to hold a position led to a Chelsea goal. Our shape tends to be better with Bendtner and Eboue playing wide than those two. In fact there was a point yesterday, when Bendtner was busting his gut to get down all the way at rightback to help cover for Sagna because no one else was there.
 

Arsenal Quotes

Arsenal is in my blood as well as my heart. I will always, always, always remember you guys. I said I was going to be a Gooner for life and I did not lie because when you are a Gooner, you will always be a Gooner. This club is in my heart and will remain in my heart forever.

Thierry Henry
Top Bottom